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    Morals & Conscience in action

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    ameliorate
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    Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  ameliorate on Wed May 14, 2014 7:01 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    I had an experience today that got me thinking on this topic.  I wonder what you would do in this situation.

    I was in a supermarket when I saw a deluxe chocolate torte - normally around £4 - greatly reduced! Not down to £2 or so but 59p!! I could hardly believe it so I put it in my shopping basket. After I had paid for it, (and still in the store) I looked at the receipt, to find it said "black cherry yogurt 59p". That's when I realised that someone had obviously put this label on it...perhaps intending to buy it. (There was a worker in that section when I saw the torte). I paused very briefly, since I knew it was morally wrong to keep it, but then I saw it as a lucky opportunity, i.e. my weak morals on this gave way to the precedence of greed! If it had been in a charity shop then my conscience would have kicked in. As it is I don't have a lot of respect for commercial companies who make a fat profit from consumers.

    What would you have done? I realise returning it would have been problematic since, how would they know it wasn't me which changed the label in the first place?

    Let me give another scenario and ask what you would do. If someone dropped a paper note of money (say £10 in UK...don't know the equivalent in other countries) and they hadn't noticed it - would you point it out to them or hope they would go away and you would take it...assuming no-one else saw this? Or would it depend on who the person was, e.g. elderly or someone well off? I would defo give it back.


    Last edited by ameliorate on Wed May 14, 2014 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  ameliorate on Mon May 19, 2014 10:05 pm

    kardecian wrote:
    Lion L wrote:
    kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it?  Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...
    That is right.  Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves.  What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
    Communism, has never been in place.  The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name.  They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

    Oh, I see.  So, they had good intentions, but it ended up not working because of 'those at the top' looked after themselves.   OK.  So, the Communists failed in the Soviet Union and in China. But they are going to get it right this next time?  OK.  I can't argue with your good intentions.
    I detect a slight note of sarcasm here.  Is it so surprising that a good idea has not worked in practise?

    It is believed that Jesus said "love one another" and, presumably, a true Christian should/would do this?  (Along
    with "love thy neighbour")  I see a vast difference between those purporting to be christians and those who are
    actually practising christians.  Our egos have a lot to answer for.  It is just very revealing of humanity.....how
    can we be so technically advanced but still at a primitive emotional stage e.g. still having wars etc?
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  Violet on Tue May 20, 2014 11:37 pm

    .....how
    can we be so technically advanced but still at a primitive emotional stage e.g. still having wars etc?
    Because we have forgotten how to listen and communicate imo



    Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  kardecian on Thu May 22, 2014 1:25 am

    ameliorate wrote:
    kardecian wrote:
    Lion L wrote:
    kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it?  Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...
    That is right.  Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves.  What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
    Communism, has never been in place.  The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name.  They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

    Oh, I see.  So, they had good intentions, but it ended up not working because of 'those at the top' looked after themselves.   OK.  So, the Communists failed in the Soviet Union and in China. But they are going to get it right this next time?  OK.  I can't argue with your good intentions.
    Yes, you did note sarcasm in my post. 
    Personally, I find that those who argue for Communism generally just parrot the thoughts of others.  They have these lofty ideas that will supposedly change the world for the better, but these ideas lead to massive destruction...... mass murder, thievery, corruption.  One can blame "those at the top" of the Soviet Union, but the fact is, the system was a failure. It was based on robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, and it was a massive disaster.  Unfortunately, people do not learn from history.  Like an alcoholic who consistently returns the bottle, and then bemoans the pain and sickness of a hangover, people return to the failed ideas of Nazism and/or Communism.
    Yes, Jesus did say “love one another.” He said that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord thy God, and love they neighbor as thyself.”  He also said, “Don’t judge, lest ye be judged. For by the measure that you judge another person, you will be judged yourself.”  In other words, one should concentrate on one thing: themselves.  You should love God, do good to your neighbor, and not judge others. In other words, don’t worry about whether your neighbor is rich or not (one of the commandments is DO NOT COVET).  Worry about yourself, and the good that YOU can do. Change begins with YOU. It begins with ME.  Don't worry about what others are doing with their money and their time.
    However, one cannot blame the world situation on the failures of Christians. Christians make up 1/3 of the world population (and most who are named Christian are not even true believers nor practicing the religion in any sort of way).  2/3 of the world are non-Christian. So, the failures of the current system are just as much the fault of the 2/3 as the 1/3.
    I wouldn’t knock religion too much.  If a person is religious (as opposed to be being what is termed ‘secular’), one is more likely to be charitable towards ones neighbor.  A study done by the Hoover Institute of Stanford University (http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577) showed the following: The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.
    The above shows that religion makes a difference.  Religion works better than secularism (as far as helping others is concerned.)
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  ameliorate on Thu May 22, 2014 10:47 am

    kardecian wrote:
    kardecian wrote:
    Lion L wrote:
    kardecian wrote: Remember reading about the Communist Revolution in Russia? It didn't turn out too well, did it?  Millions murdered... millions homeless... property ceased to make all equal...
    That is right.  Communism failed because those at the top looked after themselves.  What began as communism swiftly became fascism.
    Communism, has never been in place.  The fascist governments, which claimed to be communist, have given it a bad name.  They have also given ammunition to the capitalists who are anti-communist because they do not want to lose their wealth.

    Oh, I see.  So, they had good intentions, but it ended up not working because of 'those at the top' looked after themselves.   OK.  So, the Communists failed in the Soviet Union and in China. But they are going to get it right this next time?  OK.  I can't argue with your good intentions.
    Yes, you did note sarcasm in my post. 
    Personally, I find that those who argue for Communism generally just parrot the thoughts of others.  They have these lofty ideas that will supposedly change the world for the better, but these ideas lead to massive destruction...... mass murder, thievery, corruption.  One can blame "those at the top" of the Soviet Union, but the fact is, the system was a failure. It was based on robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, and it was a massive disaster.  Unfortunately, people do not learn from history.  Like an alcoholic who consistently returns the bottle, and then bemoans the pain and sickness of a hangover, people return to the failed ideas of Nazism and/or Communism.
    Yes, Jesus did say “love one another.” He said that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord thy God, and love they neighbor as thyself.”  He also said, “Don’t judge, lest ye be judged. For by the measure that you judge another person, you will be judged yourself.”  In other words, one should concentrate on one thing: themselves.  You should love God, do good to your neighbor, and not judge others. In other words, don’t worry about whether your neighbor is rich or not (one of the commandments is DO NOT COVET).  Worry about yourself, and the good that YOU can do. Change begins with YOU. It begins with ME.  Don't worry about what others are doing with their money and their time.
    However, one cannot blame the world situation on the failures of Christians. Christians make up 1/3 of the world population (and most who are named Christian are not even true believers nor practicing the religion in any sort of way).  2/3 of the world are non-Christian. So, the failures of the current system are just as much the fault of the 2/3 as the 1/3.
    I wouldn’t knock religion too much.  If a person is religious (as opposed to be being what is termed ‘secular’), one is more likely to be charitable towards ones neighbor.  A study done by the Hoover Institute of Stanford University (http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577) showed the following: The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.
    The above shows that religion makes a difference.  Religion works better than secularism (as far as helping others is concerned.)
    Yes communism failed and, as Lion pointed out, we have never seen it in place so it cannot be assessed fully formed and
    operating can it, i.e. judged?  (I note what you say about Jesus on judgement.  Personally I have no problem with this since we live in duality).  Is it the idea itself that is at fault or that it is just not initiated with an honest intention to begin with?  It's a complex issue that I would not dismiss without much further research. It's pertinent that you talk of communism as being a lofty idea that could "supposedly change the world for the better".  Jesus had a few ideas himself, didn't he?

    It wasn't my intention to knock Christianity but it came to mind as an example of something good not always being borne out in practice.  To give money is hardly the measure of righteous, moral conduct....anyone can offer a few coins to absolve their conscience and continue to act in an unchristian fashion.  So your conclusion that religion works better than secularism based on this seems questionable.  A better measure of "helping others" would be better guaged without this easy act of donation, e.g. compassion and being directly emotionally supportive to those in need. Unfortunately, the link you provided in your post does not show the one study you quoted, so I have no way of appraising it.

    That said, anything that brings out the good in people is fine by me but, you must surely recognise that Christianity is not as popular as it once was, at least here in UK. 




    Last edited by ameliorate on Thu May 22, 2014 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  Lion L on Thu May 22, 2014 10:55 am

    kardecian,  
    I think it is criminal for some to have far more than they will ever need whilst others die of starvation. 
    If I had 100 apples and 100 children they would get one each - that is fair.
    Under the current system one child can have 40 apples for himself whilst the other 99 must share the remainder between them - that is not fair.
    Yes I know ideas like this are frowned upon.  The rich media machine wants to stay that way so ideas about sharing are ridiculed and called "evil."

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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  skye on Thu May 22, 2014 12:09 pm

    I think the changes you and many people are wanting to happen in the world Lion L will come gradually. There is no quick fix to this problem and if there was it wouldn't last. Change has to come from within. If a person has no thoughts or considerations towards matters which benefit humanity then change is unlikely to take effect until the divine light that flickers inside them shines like a beacon. It has to dawn on them spiritually and this is a gradual process as not everyone is spiritually minded or indeed they may not have faith in any denomination of religious belief.
          
    No one has the right to control how any person behaves or how they think, no matter how much they may disapprove of their actions. What is right for one could be wrong for another. Generally speaking forcing or trying to convert people's thinking is manipulative behaviour. To some this could be perceived to be as wrong an injustice as it is for those who are judged as being greedy and acting selfishly.  

    For all we know progress could be occurring right now. Yet, because we don't see what our expectations want us to see, we can wrongly assume changes are not taking place.
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  ameliorate on Thu May 22, 2014 12:29 pm

    Good, perceptive post Skye!

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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  skye on Thu May 22, 2014 8:41 pm

    Thank you ameliorate.
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  innerlight on Thu May 22, 2014 9:04 pm

    Lion L wrote:kardecian,  
    I think it is criminal for some to have far more than they will ever need whilst others die of starvation. 
    If I had 100 apples and 100 children they would get one each - that is fair.
    Under the current system one child can have 40 apples for himself whilst the other 99 must share the remainder between them - that is not fair.
    Yes I know ideas like this are frowned upon.  The rich media machine wants to stay that way so ideas about sharing are ridiculed and called "evil."

    And is usually always the case when one blames one side is that both sides of the argument is never shown. They just pick one side to make the other look bad.

    While you say it's not fair for the person to keep 40 apples... But what if that person had 40 apples and the other 99 people decided they did not want to work and wanted free apples. On your system here you are saying it would be fair for the guy that worked hard to get his apples should give them to those that did not want to work at all and wants free stuff. That is not creating a fair system. That is creating a system of entitlement and handouts. A fair system is in creating the opportunities for those other 99 people to get forty apples as well. When it becomes unfair is when you prevent the other 99 from ever getting past 5 apples.
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  ameliorate on Thu May 22, 2014 9:45 pm

    I say why not make one enormous apple pie and divide it up evenly!
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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  kardecian on Thu May 22, 2014 11:02 pm

    skye wrote:I think the changes you and many people are wanting to happen in the world Lion L will come gradually. There is no quick fix to this problem and if there was it wouldn't last. Change has to come from within. If a person has no thoughts or considerations towards matters which benefit humanity then change is unlikely to take effect until the divine light that flickers inside them shines like a beacon. It has to dawn on them spiritually and this is a gradual process as not everyone is spiritually minded or indeed they may not have faith in any denomination of religious belief.
          
    No one has the right to control how any person behaves or how they think, no matter how much they may disapprove of their actions. What is right for one could be wrong for another. Generally speaking forcing or trying to convert people's thinking is manipulative behaviour. To some this could be perceived to be as wrong an injustice as it is for those who are judged as being greedy and acting selfishly.  

    For all we know progress could be occurring right now. Yet, because we don't see what our expectations want us to see, we can wrongly assume changes are not taking place.
    Skye, I agree with you. I think that society is slowly progressing: socially, morally, etc. The things people desire (paradise on earth/ no war/ equality, etc.) will one day be a reality. But, we have to cut through all of our karma.  The world is in transition.  There is great disparity right now: the rich vs. the poor, etc.)  This disparity is due to more advanced spirits incarnating alongside lower spirits.  This causes a lot of division, a lot of chaos, a lot of disagreement.  But, is due time, this planet will see the changes that people desire. We have to be changed morally/spiritually before these changes can occur. I'm simply implying that they cannot be done artificially. They cannot be forced on anyone. THESE CHANGES HAVE TO COME FROM A WILLING SPIRIT, OTHERWISE THEY ARE ARTIFICIAL. On the other hand, I think that anyone who strives for peace; anyone who desires to actively work to eleviate pain and suffering in this world, should be applauded. 

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    Re: Morals & Conscience in action

    Post  skye on Thu May 22, 2014 11:39 pm

    kardecian wrote:Skye, I agree with you. I think that society is slowly progressing: socially, morally, etc. The things people desire (paradise on earth/ no war/ equality, etc.) will one day be a reality. But, we have to cut through all of our karma.  The world is in transition.  There is great disparity right now: the rich vs. the poor, etc.)  This disparity is due to more advanced spirits incarnating alongside lower spirits.  This causes a lot of division, a lot of chaos, a lot of disagreement.  But, is due time, this planet will see the changes that people desire. We have to be changed morally/spiritually before these changes can occur. I'm simply implying that they cannot be done artificially. They cannot be forced on anyone. THESE CHANGES HAVE TO COME FROM A WILLING SPIRIT, OTHERWISE THEY ARE ARTIFICIAL. On the other hand, I think that anyone who strives for peace; anyone who desires to actively work to eleviate pain and suffering in this world, should be applauded. 
    Kardecian, I agree entirely with your sentiments as expressed in your bold typed writing.

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