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    The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

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    Knight of Albion
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    The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Knight of Albion on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:03 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    A new book on NDEs 'The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences' by Dr Penny Sartori, is to be published in February.

    The book has just had the most tremendous write-up in the Daily Mail... 

    Here is the article.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-experiences-ARE-real-Extraordinary-new-book-intensive-care-nurse-reveals-dramatic-evidence-says-banish-fear-dying.html
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    Azrael
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:04 pm

    ameliorate wrote:Azrael you completely missed the enigma in that particular NDE - guess you were in too much of a hurry
    to post your anti stance.   His brain closing down does NOT account for why he saw his sister who he thought was alive amongst those dead relatives that greeted him.  Never mind  :SH: 

    Matter of interpretation you seem to be missing what I am saying. Anyway, the NDE subject is subjective and speculative at best at this point its best to agree to disagree and move on..... :peace:
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    SpiritVoices
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  SpiritVoices on Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:43 pm

    Azrael wrote:
    ameliorate wrote:
    Azrael wrote:
    ameliorate wrote:Azrael...how do you account for my post no. 13?  It cannot be explained away by brain chemistry.

    You don't know that and neither do I.
    Er...what?  Did you even read that post?   :faint: 

    How do you account for, in the NDE experience, he met his sister amongst the other dead relatives that he thought to be alive - only to later learn she had recently been killed?  How can this be explained by brain chemistry pray tell?

    He met his so called sister because that was part of the brain shutting down at near death....Ever heard the old adage "your life passing before eyes".....he may have met his sister in his head but thats all it was in his head....These accounts to me are no more than religious people trying to "VALIDATE" a heaven which coincidentally no one has ever seen or found.  Brain waves spike at the near time of death this hyper activity is again the brain preparing some one for the inevitable. These NDEs really are no more than vivid dreams which some people recall better than others.

    These are no more than peoples attempt to validate what has been shoved down their throat all their life. They may happen but they are no more than hearsay because no one can validate them but the person its happening to. The DREADED fear of being placed in a hole for eternity and left to rot naturally is just not what some people want accept. Dying is not something anyone wants to accept but it is a cold hard fact of life (momento  mori) which means "remember, you will die."

    As to this story, what he saw or thought he saw was the brain dredging up past memories. Am I calling him a liar? No.

    The Dying Brain
    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts01.html#a01
    Susan Blackmore?  Used to watch her on television...extremely interesting lady.
    Talking about very vivid dreams,some don't believe that when we dream Lucid dreams,we can enter the spirit world,or one step over the border,shall we say?
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  ameliorate on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:22 pm

    Azrael...I totally got what you were saying.  I know you think people are fabricating experiences because you deduce it is due to fear of death.  Perhaps you only accept scientific evidence?   Have you ever had a spiritual experience I wonder? If you have, perhaps you know that it isn't likely to be conducive to being tested under arranged scientific conditions.

    I will share this much with you.  I didn't have a NDE but, on feeling death was imminent, I knew completely that something in me would live on.  However, the bad news was that it wasn't me as I knew myself - my ego - but an energy (that I now know to be my soul).  You see?  I am a realist/a truth seeker.  If I wanted to fabricate it I would have loved to believe it was me, as I know myself in the world, that would live on but I want to see things as they are.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:53 am

    ameliorate wrote:Azrael...I totally got what you were saying.  I know you think people are fabricating experiences because you deduce it is due to fear of death.  Perhaps you only accept scientific evidence?   Have you ever had a spiritual experience I wonder? If you have, perhaps you know that it isn't likely to be conducive to being tested under arranged scientific conditions.

    I will share this much with you.  I didn't have a NDE but, on feeling death was imminent, I knew completely that something in me would live on.  However, the bad news was that it wasn't me as I knew myself - my ego - but an energy (that I now know to be my soul).  You see?  I am a realist/a truth seeker.  If I wanted to fabricate it I would have loved to believe it was me, as I know myself in the world, that would live on but I want to see things as they are.



    Nope. Never have. Not a very spiritual person.




    No. I do not believe it is the fear of death that induces these things. I do believe that it is not some outside spiritual presence that causes them. As far as people fabricating this stuff I do not believe they are fabricating anything. What I will say is that there is no conclusive evidence that there is another side, a heaven or something so to speak. All this afterlife stuff is not new, the ancient Egyptians dealt with it and also other ancient civilizations.

    If you believe this stuff then thats fine it is your belief I do not have a problem with it.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  ameliorate on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:21 am

    Azrael - when I had that experience I shared in the above post, I had not formed a fixed belief in the afterlife.  My experience showed me what was there so cannot be explained away as you envisage.

    Yes, it becomes very apparent that you lack a degree of spirituality.  How can you find answers on this forum when spirituality does not lend itself readily to the kind of solid, scientific evidence that you would find acceptable/persuasive?   Until you open your mind a little it will always be thus.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:28 am

    "Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
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    ameliorate
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  ameliorate on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:20 am

    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    So you are not here to open your mind or learn...just to diss us?  Hmmm 
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    Azrael
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:48 pm

    ameliorate wrote:
    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    So you are not here to open your mind or learn...just to diss us?  Hmmm 


    Hey! Who knows? Maybe I will be converted to the ways of the Force if I stay long enough.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  SpiritVoices on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:36 pm

    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:00 pm

    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....

    Thats the difference. Just how do you know what is real and what your mind is telling you? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but honestly I have tried all this spirituality junk and got nothing out of it. I can to some extent connect with Necromancy what the hell that means I have no idea.
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    ameliorate
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  ameliorate on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:08 pm

    Azrael - I find the phrase "spirituality junk" offensive.  Just because it has not benefitted you personally, why diss it?  Can you not see so many benefit from it and we are not all deluded.  Like I've said, I am a realist.
    I have greatly benefited from having a positive mindset (positive thinking) and developing compassion is not to be dismissed in that derogatory way unless you are an unfeeling person.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:12 pm

    ameliorate wrote:Azrael - I find the phrase "spirituality junk" offensive.  Just because it has not benefitted you personally, why diss it?  Can you not see so many benefit from it and we are not all deluded.  Like I've said, I am a realist.
    I have greatly benefited from having a positive mindset (positive thinking) and developing compassion is not to be dismissed in that derogatory way unless you are an unfeeling person.




    Thats great! I am glad you have. The spiritualist junk I was referring to was not pointed at anyone so do not take offense.




    Not dissing it. If it works for others thats great I have no problem with it.



    I do not recall saying anyone was deluded, if I did please point it out.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:48 am

    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....

    Thats the difference. Just how do you know what is real and what your mind is telling you? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but honestly I have tried all this spirituality junk and got nothing out of it. I can to some extent connect with Necromancy what the hell that means I have no idea.
    Faces too,I see faces...Some not so pleasant,in fact positively evil but other one smiling at me....
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:54 am

    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....

    Thats the difference. Just how do you know what is real and what your mind is telling you? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but honestly I have tried all this spirituality junk and got nothing out of it. I can to some extent connect with Necromancy what the hell that means I have no idea.
    Faces too,I see faces...Some not so pleasant,in fact positively evil but other one smiling at me....


    Huh?
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    SpiritVoices
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:32 pm

    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:"Spirituality" to me is just a word for "False Hope", my opinion.
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....

    Thats the difference. Just how do you know what is real and what your mind is telling you? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but honestly I have tried all this spirituality junk and got nothing out of it. I can to some extent connect with Necromancy what the hell that means I have no idea.
    Faces too,I see faces...Some not so pleasant,in fact positively evil but other one smiling at me....


    Huh?
    Faces in my minds eye.....If I close my eyes,I can see a lot of faces....Men,women and children.   I take it they come from spirit...
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  Azrael on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:16 pm

    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    Azrael wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:
    In some ways I am inclined to agree with you,Azrael.    We are sometimes given messages,where ever these messages come from i.e. the spirit world...
    Some are genuine and some are not....

    Thats the difference. Just how do you know what is real and what your mind is telling you? Not trying to be a stick in the mud but honestly I have tried all this spirituality junk and got nothing out of it. I can to some extent connect with Necromancy what the hell that means I have no idea.
    Faces too,I see faces...Some not so pleasant,in fact positively evil but other one smiling at me....


    Huh?
    Faces in my minds eye.....If I close my eyes,I can see a lot of faces....Men,women and children.   I take it they come from spirit...

    Oh. OK. I see what you are saying.
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    Re: The Wisdom of Near-Death Experiences

    Post  SpiritVoices on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:21 am

    Got to admit though,I don't recognise any of them.   If it was a relative or friend,who has departed to spirit,then I would understand why they were showing themselves.

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