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    Vision Quest

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    Medicine_Dog
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    Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:40 pm

    The vision quest or perceiving quest is integral to Native American spirituality. Each tribe had their own means and methods of beginning this quest, but the goals where basically the same. To learn how we perceive life and to learn how important these perceptions are to spiritual growth. As each of us begin this journey in our own unique way, we see that our individuality is subjective.  By progressing through the wheel of life, our perceptions are shared and borrowed from others along the way. We are all interconnected and related in this journey, there is no individuals. This oneness with all that is-- creates The foundation of most native cultures. 

    So who here is actively engaged in their own perceiving quest? or should I say consciously engaged-- since we are all doing it but might not know it.

    Share with us your experiences along this journey and perhaps we can learn from each other's experiences and share our personal medicine with one another.   :asmile:
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:57 pm

    The jumping mouse story from "seven arrows" by H.Storm:

    Once there was a mouse. He was a busy mouse, searching everywhere, touching his whiskers to the grass, and looking. He was busy as all mice are, busy with mice things. But once in a while he would hear an odd sound. He would lift his head, squinting hard to see, his whiskers wiggling in the air, and he would wonder. One day he scurried up to a fellow mouse and asked him, "Do you hear a roaring in your ears, my brother?"
    "No, no," answered the other mouse, not lifting his busy nose from the ground. "I hear nothing. I am busy now. Talk to me later."
    He asked another mouse the same question and the mouse looked at him strangely. "Are you foolish in your head? what sound?" he asked and slipped into a Hole in a fallen cottonwood tree.
    The little mouse shrugged his whiskers and busied himself again, determined to forget the whole matter. But there was that roaring again. It was faint, very faint, but it was there! One day, he decided to investigate the sound just a little. Leaving the other busy mice, he scurried a little way away and listened again. There it was! He was listening hard when suddenly, someone said hello.
    Hello little brother," the voice said, and mouse almost jumped right out of his skin. He arched his back and tail and was about to run.
    "Hello," again said the voice. "It is I, brother raccoon." And sure enough, It was! "What are you doing here all by yourself, little brother?" asked the raccoon. The mouse blushed, and put his nose almost to the ground. "I hear a roaring in my ears and I am investigating it," he answered timidly.
    "A roaring in your ears?" replied the raccoon as he sat down with him. "What you hear, little brother , is the river."
    "The river?" mouse asked curiously. "What is a river?"
    "Walk with me and I will show you the river," raccoon said.
    Little mouse was terribly afraid, but he was determined to find out once and for all about the roaring. "I can return to my work," he thought, "after this thing is settled, and possibly this thing may aid me in all my busy examining and collecting. And my brothers all said it was nothing. I will show them. I will ask raccoon to return with me and I will have proof."
    "All right raccoon, my brother," said mouse. "lead on to the river. I will walk with you."
    Little mouse walked with raccoon. His little heart was pounding in his breast. The raccoon was taking him upon strange paths and little mouse smelled the scent of many things that had gone by his way. Many times he became so frightened he almost turned back. Finally, they came to the river! It was huge and breathtaking, deep and clear in places, and murky in others. Little mouse was unable to see across it because it was so great. It roared, sang, cried, and thundered on its course. Little mouse saw great and little pieces of the world carried along on its surface.
    "It is powerful!" little mouse said, fumbling for words.
    It is a great thing," answered the raccoon, "But here, let me introduce you to a friend."
    In a smoother, shallower place was a lily pad, bright and green. Sitting upon it was a frog, almost as green as the pad it sat on. The frog's white belly stood out clearly.
    "Hello, little brother," said the frog.
    "Welcome to the river."
    "I must leave you now," cut in raccoon, "but do not fear, little brother, for frog will care for you now." And raccoon left, looking along the river bank for food that he might wash and eat.
    Little mouse approached the water and looked into it. He saw a frightened mouse reflected there.
    "Who are you?" little mouse asked the reflection. "Are you not afraid of being that far out into the great river?"
    "No, answered the frog, "I am not afraid. I have been given the gift from birth to live both above and within the river. When winter man comes and freezes this medicine, I cannot be seen. But all the while thunderbird flies, I am here. To visit me, One must come when the world is green. I, my brother, am the keeper of the water."
    Amazing!" little mouse said at last, again fumbling for words."
    Would you like to have some medicine power?" frog asked."
    "Medicine power? Me?" asked little mouse. "Yes, yes! If it is possible."
    "Then crouch as low as you can, and then jump as high as you are able! You will have your medicine!" Frog said.
    Little mouse did as he was Instructed. He crouched as low as he could and jumped. And when he did, his eyes saw the sacred mountains.
    Little mouse could hardly believe his eyes. But there they were! But then he fell back to Earth, and he landed in the river!
    Little mouse became frightened and scrambled back to the bank. He was wet and frightened nearly to death.
    "You have tricked me," little mouse screamed at the frog!"
    "Wait," said the frog. "You are not harmed. Do not let your fear and anger blind you. What did you see?"
    "I," mouse stammered, "I saw the sacred mountains!"
    "And you have a new name!" frog said. "It is Jumping Mouse."
    "Thank you. Thank you," Jumping Mouse said, and Thanked him again. "I want to return to my people and tell them of this thing that has happened to me."
    "Go. Go then," frog said. "Return to your people. It is easy to find them. Keep the sound of the medicine river to the back of your Head. Go opposite to the sound and you will find your brother mice."
    Jumping Mouse returned to the world of the mice. But he found disappointment. No one would listen to him. And because he was wet, and had no way of explaining it because there had been no rain, many of the other mice were afraid of him. They believed he had been spat from the mouth of another animal that had tried to eat him. And they all knew that if he had not been food for the one who wanted him, then he must also be poison for them.
    Jumping Mouse lived again among his people, but he could not forget his vision of the sacred mountains.
    The memory burned in the mind and heart of Jumping Mouse, and one day he went to the edge of the place of mice and looked out onto the prairie. He looked up for eagles. The sky was full of many spots, each one an eagle. But he was determined to go to the sacred mountains. He gathered all of his courage and ran just as fast as he could onto the prairie. His little heart pounded with excitement and fear.
    He Ran until he came to a stand of sage. He was resting and trying to catch his breath when he saw an Old Mouse. The patch of sage Old Mouse lived in was a haven for mice. Seeds and many things to be busy with.
    "Hello," said Old Mouse. "Welcome."
    Jumping Mouse was amazed. Such a place and such a mouse. "You are truly a great mouse." Jumping Mouse said with all the respect that he could find. "This is truly a wonderful place. And the eagles cannot see you here, either," Jumping Mouse said.
    "Yes," said Old Mouse," and one can see all the beings of the prairie here: the buffalo, Antelope, Rabbit, and Coyote. One can see them all from here and know their names."
    "That is marvelous," Jumping Mouse said. "Can you also see the river and the great mountains?"
    "Yes and no," Old Mouse said with conviction. "I know the great river, But I am afraid that the great mountains are only a myth. Forget your passion to see them and stay here with me. There is everything you want here, and it is a good place to be."
    "How can he say such a thing?" Thought Jumping Mouse. "The medicine of the sacred mountains is nothing one can forget."
    "Thank you very much for the meal you have shared with me, Old Mouse, and also for sharing your great home," Jumping Mouse said. "But I must seek the mountains."
    "You are a foolish mouse to leave, there is danger on the prairie! Just look up there!" Old Mouse said, with even more conviction. "See all those spots! They are eagles, and they will catch you!"
    It was hard for Jumping Mouse to leave, but he gathered his determination and ran hard again.
    The ground was rough. But he arched his tail and ran with all his might. He could feel the shadows of the spots upon his back as he ran. All those spots! Finally he ran into a stand of chokecherries. Jumping Mouse could hardly believe his eyes. It was cool there and very spacious. There was water, cherries, and seeds to eat, grasses to gather for nests, holes to be explored and many, many other busy things to do. And there were a great many things to gather.
    He was investigating his new domain when he heard very heavy breathing. He quickly investigated the sound and discovered its source. It was a great mound of hair with black horns. It was a great buffalo. Jumping Mouse could hardly believe the greatness of the being he saw lying there before him. He was so large that Jumping Mouse could have crawled into one of his great horns. "Such a magnificent being," thought Jumping Mouse, and he crept closer.
    "Hello, my brother," said the buffalo. "Thank you for visiting me."
    "Hello Great Being," said Jumping Mouse. "Why are you lying here?"
    "I am sick and I am dying" the buffalo said.
    "And my medicine has told me that only the eye of a mouse can heal me. But little brother, there is no such thing as a mouse."
    Jumping Mouse was shocked. "One of my eyes!" he thought. "One of my tiny eyes." He scurried back into the stand of chokecherries. But the breathing came harder and slower.
    "He will die." Thought Jumping Mouse. "If I do not give him my eye. He is too great a being to let die."
    He went back to where the buffalo lay and spoke. "I am a mouse." he said with a shaky voice. "And you, my brother, are a Great Being. I cannot let you die. I have two eyes, so you may have one of them."
    The minute he said it, Jumping Mouse's eye flew out of his head and the buffalo was made whole. The buffalo jumped to his feet, shaking Jumping Mouse's whole world.
    "Thank you, my little brother," said the buffalo. "I know of your quest for the sacred mountains and of your visit to the River. You have given me life so that I may give-away to the people. I will be your brother forever. Run under my belly and I will take you right to the foot of the sacred mountains, and you need not fear the spots. The eagles cannot see you while you run under me. All they will see will be the back of a buffalo. I am of the prairie and I will fall on you if I try to go up the mountains."
    Little mouse ran under the buffalo, secure and hidden from the spots, but with only one eye it was frightening. The buffalo's great hooves shook the whole world each time he took a step. finally the came to a place and buffalo stopped.
    "This is where I must leave you, little brother," said the buffalo.
    "Thank you very much," said Jumping Mouse. "But you know, it was very frightening running under you with only one eye. I was constantly in fear of your great earth-shaking hooves."
    "Your fear was for nothing," said buffalo, "For my way of walking is the sun dance way, and I always know where my hooves will fall. I now must return to the prairie, my brother, You can always find me there."
    Jumping Mouse immediately began to investigate his new surroundings. There were even more things here than in the other places, busier things, and abundance of seeds and other things mice like. In his investigation of these things, Suddenly he ran upon a gray wolf who was sitting there doing absolutely nothing.
    "Hello, brother wolf," Jumping Mouse said.
    The wolf's ears came alert and his eyes shone. "wolf! wolf! yes, that is what I am, I am a wolf!" But then his mind dimmed again and it was not long before he sat quietly again, completely without memory as to who he was. Each time Jumping Mouse reminded him who he was, he became excited with the news, but soon would forget again.
    "Such a great being," thought Jumping Mouse, "but he has no memory."
    Jumping Mouse went to the center of his new place and was quiet. He listened for a very long time to the beating of his heart. Then suddenly he made up his mind. He scurried back to where the wolf sat and he spoke.
    "brother wolf," Jumping Mouse said. ....
    "wolf! wolf," said the wolf ....
    "Please brother wolf," said Jumping Mouse, "Please listen to me. I know what will heal you. It is one of my eyes. And I want to give it to you. You are a greater being than I. I am only a mouse. Please take it."
    When Jumping Mouse stopped speaking his eye flew out of his head and the wolf was made whole.
    Tears fell down the cheeks of the wolf, but his little brother could not see them, for now he was blind.
    "You are a great brother," said the wolf, "For now I have my memory. But now you are blind. I am the guide into the sacred mountains. I will take you there. There is a great medicine lake there. The most beautiful lake in the world. All the world is reflected there. The people, the lodges of the people, and all the beings of the prairies and skies."
    "Please take me there," Jumping Mouse said. The wolf guided him through the pines to the medicine lake. Jumping Mouse drank the water from the lake. The wolf described the beauty to him.
    I must leave you here," said wolf, "For I must return so that I may guide others, but I will remain with you as long as you like."
    Thank you, my brother," said Jumping Mouse. "But although I am frightened to be alone, I know you must go so that you may show others the way to this place."
    Jumping Mouse sat there trembling in fear. It was no use running, for he was blind, but he knew an eagle would find him here. He felt a shadow on his back and heard the sound that eagles make. He braced himself for the shock. And the eagle Hit! Jumping Mouse went to sleep.
    Then he woke up. The surprise of being alive was great, but now he could see!
    Everything was blurry, but the colors were beautiful.
    "I can see! I can see!" said Jumping Mouse over again and again.
    A blurry shape came toward Jumping Mouse. Jumping Mouse squinted hard but the shape remained a blur.
    "Hello, brother," a voice said. "Do you want some medicine?"
    "Some medicine for me?" asked Jumping Mouse. "Yes! Yes!"
    "Then crouch down as low as you can," the voice said, "and jump as high as you can."
    Jumping Mouse did as he was instructed. He crouched as low as he could and jumped! The wind caught him and carried him higher."
    "Do not be afraid," the voice called to him. "Hang on to the wind and trust!"
    Jumping Mouse did. He closed his eyes and hung on to the wind and it carried higher and higher. Jumping Mouse opened his eyes and they were clear, and the higher he went the clearer they became. Jumping Mouse saw his old friend upon a lily pad on the beautiful medicine lake. It was the Frog.
    "You have a new name," called the frog. "You are Eagle!"
    (The End, or perhaps a new beginning)
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:18 pm

    Cheyenne or Crow I think.... Didn't really say in the book.. :huh: 

    The story can also be found online listed under unknown tribe or plains Indian.. 

     :peace:
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:31 am

    Or is it?  :shock1: 


    After a in depth review I found this:

    Author of seven arrows=

    Hyemeohsts Storm is among the most senior plastic shamans. His real name is Charles Storm, or Arthur C. Storm; he also goes by „Wolf Storm“ and „General Storm“, or „Chuck“ Storm.

    Behind the scenes:


    In 1972 already, Storm published the first of three books, titled „Seven Arrows“. The book, published by Harper & Row as non-fiction, was promoted as describing details of Cheyenne spirituality and ceremonies. However, it raised fierce protests and objections from the Cheyenne nation who regard the content as blasphemous and utterly wrong and also declared that Storm was not enrolled and not known in the nation. Harper & Row reacted to these objections by presenting a copy of an enrollment card of Charles Storm, issued by the Cheyenne nation, which was promptly exposed as forged[1].

    Harper & Row's vice president Douglas Latimer, who was responsible for publishing the book, entered negotiations with the Cheyenne nation in an attempt of damage control and agreed to pay what the Cheyenne called „reparations“. The amount was paid to avoid a court judgement against Harper & Row. He refused, however, to withdraw the book completely, as the rights had already been sold to another publishing house[1]. A later court verdict ordered the book to be published as „fiction“ material to indicate its contents were not based on facts.

    Storm cooperated with other plastic shamans and is e.g. considered one of the teachers of Harley Reagan; he still gets mentioned by Deer Tribe members, some of whom claim him as a teacher, too. Storm and Reagan seem to have cooperated for several years, e.g. alternately doing series of lectures and seminars in Europe[9]. Other publications mention further well-known plastic shamans who allegedly were taught by Storm, like Lynn Andrews[10].

    That's why it's found in the fiction section..  :faint: 

    Referenced: 
    http://www.psiram.com/en/index.php/Hyemeyohsts_Storm
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:38 pm

    I think the term "Plastic Shaman" is over used to invalidate much. I always considered Storm to be a writer, not a "Shaman". I knew he gave workshops in Santa Cruz CA at on time. The Story is Cheyenne, and if you read the book he states that fact. People who gets to close to the truth gets ridiculed all the time. 

    I want to discuss the Story and how it relates to perceiving and the Vision Quest, rather than about H. Storm personally. How does the Story of Jumping Mouse relates to the Vision Quest? I do think this story is an Old Story. If we invalidate so much out of life, we will learn nothing. Lets break out of culterually imprinted negativity and learn.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:47 pm

    The Internet has so much Negativity on it, that it makes me sick. It seems many like to dump their anger and sour feelings there, because they know they can get away with it. Also it is a way for them to have some Control. We must be very-very careful when quoting things from the internet.

    Never Ever consider what you read on the internet to be truth. Form your own opinions, and research even more. Also I suggest you read "Seven Arrows" cover to cover before making judgement because what others say anbout it on or off line.
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    Ad Hominem

    Post  Thunder Bow on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:41 pm

    This is big. Watch this video to see what I mean.

    http://youtu.be/SJplUvphGH4

    Name calling such as "Plastic Shaman" is an excellent example.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:13 am

    I never thought I would see a ad hominem educational cartoon. I done seen it all now..  :giggles: 

    Calling him a plastic shaman would only be ad hominem if they didn't offer any arguments against  Storm's depiction of the "facts" in the book; which they did. It could be considered name calling but their points still need to be addressed. Since the book is literally in the fiction section of the book store, one must ask themselves:  

    If the book can't be used as a factual text then why use it as a spiritual one?  (Rhetorical question) :scratch:
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:12 am

    Another view from an academic perspective:

    STUDIES IN AMERICAN INDIAN LITERATURES
    ASAIL Newsletter, N.S. Vol. 4, No. 2, Spring, 1980
    Seven Arrows: Seven Years After


    Seven Arrows was published in 1972 as the first title of the American Indian Publishing program at Harper and Row. As the brainchild of Douglas Latimer, then vice president at Harper and Row, this non-profit program aimed at raising money to develop Indian language texts for needy reservation schools, thus restoring cultural identity for the people Latimer felt were now living "with a sense of hopelessness -- without a culture". Shortly after Seven Arrows appeared, Rupert Costo, president of the American Indian Historical Society, cited several inaccuracies in the book and charged Storm with "vulgarizing one of the most beautiful but least known religions of Man". These inaccuracies, Costo argued, were misrepresentations by an author of questionable Indian identity who was "presumptuous" in claiming to be a spokesperson for the Cheyenne Way.
    Costo was not alone. A review in The American Anthropologist called Seven Arrows an "atrocity", cited additional inaccuracies quoted a Cheyenne Tribal Councilman who viewed the book as "complete B.S. from cover to cover," and blamed the publisher for trying to dupe the "naive public" by promoting Seven Arrows as "authentic Indian lore." In the New York Times Book Review, Smithsonian anthropologist William C. Sturtevant called the book "pompous and rather patronizing instructions in pseudo-religious mysteries which are said to be exemplified in a long boring story written in the style of old-fashioned children's fairy tales about animals". The Cheyenne Tribal Council officially condemned the book. Little Joe Coyote, Cheyenne religious leader, sent a letter to harper and Row in which he wrote:

    "Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Mr. Chuck Storm's book Seven Arrows is the fact that some of the beliefs which he presents in his book as having been derived from our spiritual ways are completely unfounded and extremely repugnant to the sensitivities of our people who are knowledgeable and qualified to speak about such things, not merely as the product of imagination, but as the result of actual lived experience. "


    Subsequently Harper and Row undertook a defense of Seven Arrows, first by circulating a letter containing Chuck Storm's tribal enrollment number and later by sending Douglas Latimer out to the Northern Cheyenne reservation where he met tribal leaders from both the Northern and Southern Cheyennes and with several invited guests, including Rupert Costo. During this unusual powwow, Costo reports, Latimer maintained that Seven Arrows was not a description of Cheyenne tradition and religious belief, that the book was not supposed "to be about the Cheyenne people". Costo also reports Latimer as having expressed a wish to withdraw the book, but "the paperback rights [had] already been sold to another publisher." Finally, Harper and Row made a grant to the Cheyenne nations, the details of which were "unavailable" to me during a recent phone call to the publisher. Costo reports that this grant is in the thousands of dollars and that Cheyennes have called the money "reparations."



    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~rnelson/asail/SAILns/42.html

    He also claims:

    My most important teacher was a Mayan Holy Woman, Healer and Zero Chief. Her name was Estcheemah. She was the wisest, most powerful and important human being I have ever known. She and her Circle of other Elders and Chiefs, tested me and then began to teach me for many years.

    From:
    http://www.universeofpoetry.org/metis.shtml

    C'mon man........

    In Texas, we call this "Hinky"-- sorry



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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:30 pm

    We are now totally lost forever in the Mean Spirited Invalidation of Seven Arrows. I knew only a little of the conterversy, but not much. After reading your quotes I am only more saddened. I done independent research on some of the stories, all though not exact, they are close. Most Native stories are changed, and none are told in the old ways. Thus who are those in the quote are really right?

    By seeing the Name calling, in the quote only alerts me to Mean Spirited accusations. Storm is a half breed, half white, half Cheyenne. I will not defend him personally for I feel the accusations are not important to the issue. There is to much of this Mean Spirited stuff going on in the modern world as it is. Those who accuse never had any real connection to what was said in the stories. They are Angry people who are going around finding people and places to dump their anger on.

    I will NOT let those kind of people rob me of the connections I found in some of the stories in "Seven Arrows". If you want to let that crap you quoted  influence you, go ahead! I do will not let that kind of crap influence me. It only robs me of seeing and learning. It only keeps me blind, lost in an angry world of accusations. I Never Ever, will let those kind of remarks influence my thinking, on any book, way, or a people. I don't care what "Authority" those in your quote may have. But when people speak in the way they do, I begin to question them. I will not let others define "What Is Indian" to me.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:17 am

    I wouldn't be as offended by seven arrows had Storm accurately depicted his "involvement" with the Cheyenne, it would have also helped if he didn't speak for all Indians by claiming ceartain truths and even worst denouncing other interpatations if the same material as false. 

    Irregardless of what good could be contrived out of his work, my question is simple:

    Does it accurately depict the spirituality of the Cheyenne people? 

    According the them, no.. 



    There are so many irreligious and irreverent inaccuracies in 
    this book that a committee of the Northern Cheyenne is now examining it in detail.** The reaction of Cheyenne people at Lame Deer was disbelief and anger: "Bunk!" 

    1) His description of the Sun dance is WRONG. 

    2) His drawing of the Sun Dance Lodge is NOT Cheyenne. 

    3) The Four Sacred Directions are INACCURATELY described as north-south-east-west. They are in fact the northeast-northwest-southeast-​southwest. 

    4) The sacred number given is WRONG. 

    5) The Cheyenne shield colors are WRONG. They are red, black, white, and yellow, not the monstrosity of color shown in the plates. 

    6) The shield designs are WRONG and actually BLASPHEME the Cheyenne religion.
     

    I've said my peace, I respect your opinion Thunder_Bow, there are good points in the book; unfortunately they appear to be that of Storm's and not of the Cheyenne.  

    Anybody want to talk about the "vision quest"?
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:56 pm

    You need to stop letting others do your thinking and see for yourself. Most of what you see and quoted, are modern versions, adapted to modern society and its parameters. Look at the stories closer and see how much they match what life may have been when they were being told. Look at the modern versions posted on the internet and see how they fit the modern world, more than the old way, of a hunting gathering people. I think the Medicine Wheels in "Seven Arrows" and the stories closely match what was told and taught in pre-modern times. Storm wrote other books, but for now, I will only discuss "Seven Arrows". His other books are interesting but not as true as "Seven Arrows".

    All the stuff you been posting is just Modern Angry People who are very ignorant of their true heritage, who are seeking control in cyber space.

    I am Traditional, thus I see differently than you do when it comes Native American Stories. I can tell what is more true to the older ways of a hunting gathering people. I can tell the difference between stories influenced by the modern world, and those that survived from our ancestors. I see this in all other Tribes, as well as my own. One needs not to be knowledge able in other tribes teachings to know what teaching is adapted to the modern world, and those that came from the Ancestors of long ago.

    In my Nation this is also a problem I am always battling. To preserve our original teachings, I must battle the modern adaptations that show up on the internet, that change their meanings. The truths in original stories such as "Jumping Mouse" as told in Seven Arrows, do apply to modern times as well as the old days. Look into your mind and your feelings to see this, and don't just react to Negative write ups you read on the internet.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:13 pm

    Medicine_Dog wrote:I wouldn't be as offended by seven arrows had Storm accurately depicted his "involvement" with the Cheyenne, it would have also helped if he didn't speak for all Indians by claiming ceartain truths and even worst denouncing other interpatations if the same material as false. 

    Irregardless of what good could be contrived out of his work, my question is simple:

    Does it accurately depict the spirituality of the Cheyenne people? 

    According the them, no.. 



    There are so many irreligious and irreverent inaccuracies in 
    this book that a committee of the Northern Cheyenne is now examining it in detail.** The reaction of Cheyenne people at Lame Deer was disbelief and anger: "Bunk!" 

    1) His description of the Sun dance is WRONG. 

    2) His drawing of the Sun Dance Lodge is NOT Cheyenne. 

    3) The Four Sacred Directions are INACCURATELY described as north-south-east-west. They are in fact the northeast-northwest-southeast-​southwest. 

    4) The sacred number given is WRONG. 

    5) The Cheyenne shield colors are WRONG. They are red, black, white, and yellow, not the monstrosity of color shown in the plates. 

    6) The shield designs are WRONG and actually BLASPHEME the Cheyenne religion.
     

    I've said my peace, I respect your opinion Thunder_Bow, there are good points in the book; unfortunately they appear to be that of Storm's and not of the Cheyenne.  

    Anybody want to talk about the "vision quest"?

    You need to under stand the people at Lame Dear are now part of the Modern world. What you posted is all 20th century adaptations. Actually I see they are quite wrong in many ways. Research the shields and find photos of them in museums. Look at the shields that predate the 20th century. You will see they used many different colors than those mentioned above. I think what you quoted here do indeed: "BLASPHEME ORIGINAL TRADTITION".  Visit the Medicine Wheel Historic Site, in Wyoming and see how it is orientated as in storms book. Look at all old medicine wheels before the 20thth century. and see how they are orientated to the original directions in storms book. Also the Sun Dances today are adapted to the modern world and are much different than those practiced 200yrs ago. There are some original drawings of the Sun Dance, from artsits of those times posted on the internet. As you done with seven arrows, also be sure to do your research on the crap you quote.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:06 pm

    To say I'm not doing my own thinking is down right WRONG(ad hominem) as an intellectual type I take pride in thinking for myself; in fact I do not allow others to think for me at all. This causes issues when another individual cannot manipulate the way my logic works. 

    I'm hard headed, lack discipline in certain areas, but always think for myself. Just because I post critical views of the book, doesn't mean I accept these critical opinions as strict facts. There's two sides to every story, by showing the seekers both sides they themselves can decide how "true" either claim is. In this respect not only am I thinking for myself; but allowing others to do the same.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:18 pm

    Tell me, why did you post that stuff? Did you really need to? I found it to be distracting and not relevant to our topic even. I was not attacking you personally, if I was, I would have used name calling..etc.. I was only saying to think for your self and research those claims you see on the internet.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Medicine_Dog on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:41 pm

    *Looks at the sign on the door*

    New Age ------>

    Never mind, I've seemed to wonder a little too far from home.

    *sorry*



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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Seekerofsolace on Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:55 am

    I rather liked the story of Jumping Mouse.  Since it is 4 a.m. in the morning, I will do my best to say what the story says to me about vision quests, but I reserve the right to change anything later :).  First, to reach the sacred mountains, jumping mouse had to hear the river.  He used his senses and awareness of the world around him to open him to new ideas.  He then had a focus which was the river.  Along the way he met raccoon, who showed him how to get to the river.  Frog teaches him jumping medicine and he then is able to see the sacred mountains.  He has to give up his eye to buffalo, but it brings him closer to the sacred mountains.  Giving up his other remaining eye to wolf brings him to the sacred mountains.  He then is then killed by an eagle, but then his eyes opens and someone teaches him medicine to fly.

    There are exchanges going on.  Each time an animal teaches him a medicine, jumping mouse's awareness expands and he gets closer to where he is trying to go.  He also must give up part of himself to make the other animals whole.  I feel he becomes a part of them in this process.  They are restored because of his sacrifice.  In the end, he is eaten by an eagle, but he is not dead but very much alive.  He has become a part of the eagle I believe.  Jumping mouse didn't die because he is apart of all there is.  Maybe I am not writing eloquently but I get the gist of what it is trying to say.

    By arguing, are we being like the mice in the field?
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:36 pm

    The Vision Quest is a Perceiving Quest. Little Mouse gave up ways of Perceiving as a Mouse (his eyes) so he could learn and grow.
    Then he saw in a new way. He became an Eagle. But remember an Eagle is no greater than a Mouse. They just see things differently. Jumping Mouse is a Story of the Vision Quest.  The Perceiving Quest. One learns who they are on a Vision Quest, how one perceives the Universe. Then you paint your name on your shield, so all will know who you are.

    In the story of Jumping Mouse, little mouse still remember when was a Mouse. But now he also has a new way in perceiving. In the story the River represents life. The Racoon represents a Teacher that is familiar with every day life, and he washes his food in it. The Old Mouse represents on who collects things and knows all the names, but they have no connection for him. They are just "Collectables". I am sure we have seen people who are like old mouse. The Old Mouse knew of the River but not of the Sacred Mountains.

    The Wolf was his Guide to the Mountains. But Jumping Mouse had to give up another way of perceiving (his other eye things so Wolf could Guide him to the Mountains and show him the sacred mirror. (Lake). When jumping mouse ran under the buffalo he ran in fear of being crushed. Our politicans are like little mouse when he was running under the buffalo.

    There is even more to the story that we can talk about here. The Story of Jumping Mouse is how I am introducing the Vision Quest and what it is.
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:39 pm

    Medicine_Dog wrote:*Looks at the sign on the door*

    New Age ------>

    Never mind, I've seemed to wonder a little too far from home.

    *sorry*




    So tell me, what are you now left with?
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:20 pm

    "New Age" another Label. Labels are short cuts stupid people use, because they can't comprehend complex ideas, books, or laws. We might as well Label "Seven Arrows" as "ObamaCare" and leave it at that!
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:22 pm

    Medicine_Dog wrote:Another view from an academic perspective:

    STUDIES IN AMERICAN INDIAN LITERATURES
    ASAIL Newsletter, N.S. Vol. 4, No. 2, Spring, 1980
    Seven Arrows: Seven Years After


           Seven Arrows was published in 1972 as the first title of the American Indian Publishing program at Harper and Row. As the brainchild of Douglas Latimer, then vice president at Harper and Row, this non-profit program aimed at raising money to develop Indian language texts for needy reservation schools, thus restoring cultural identity for the people Latimer felt were now living "with a sense of hopelessness -- without a culture". Shortly after Seven Arrows appeared, Rupert Costo, president of the American Indian Historical Society, cited several inaccuracies in the book and charged Storm with "vulgarizing one of the most beautiful but least known religions of Man". These inaccuracies, Costo argued, were misrepresentations by an author of questionable Indian identity who was "presumptuous" in claiming to be a spokesperson for the Cheyenne Way.
           Costo was not alone. A review in The American Anthropologist called Seven Arrows an "atrocity", cited additional inaccuracies quoted a Cheyenne Tribal Councilman who viewed the book as "complete B.S. from cover to cover," and blamed the publisher for trying to dupe the "naive public" by promoting Seven Arrows as "authentic Indian lore." In the New York Times Book Review, Smithsonian anthropologist William C. Sturtevant called the book "pompous and rather patronizing instructions in pseudo-religious mysteries which are said to be exemplified in a long boring story written in the style of old-fashioned children's fairy tales about animals". The Cheyenne Tribal Council officially condemned the book. Little Joe Coyote, Cheyenne religious leader, sent a letter to harper and Row in which he wrote:

    "Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of Mr. Chuck Storm's book Seven Arrows is the fact that some of the beliefs which he presents in his book as having been derived from our spiritual ways are completely unfounded and extremely repugnant to the sensitivities of our people who are knowledgeable and qualified to speak about such things, not merely as the product of imagination, but as the result of actual lived experience. "


           Subsequently Harper and Row undertook a defense of Seven Arrows, first by circulating a letter containing Chuck Storm's tribal enrollment number and later by sending Douglas Latimer out to the Northern Cheyenne reservation where he met tribal leaders from both the Northern and Southern Cheyennes and with several invited guests, including Rupert Costo. During this unusual powwow, Costo reports, Latimer maintained that Seven Arrows was not a description of Cheyenne tradition and religious belief, that the book was not supposed "to be about the Cheyenne people". Costo also reports Latimer as having expressed a wish to withdraw the book, but "the paperback rights [had] already been sold to another publisher." Finally, Harper and Row made a grant to the Cheyenne nations, the details of which were "unavailable" to me during a recent phone call to the publisher. Costo reports that this grant is in the thousands of dollars and that Cheyennes have called the money "reparations."



    https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~rnelson/asail/SAILns/42.html

    He also claims:

    My most important teacher was a Mayan Holy Woman, Healer and Zero Chief. Her name was Estcheemah. She was the wisest, most powerful and important human being I have ever known. She and her Circle of other Elders and Chiefs, tested me and then began to teach me for many years.

    From:
    http://www.universeofpoetry.org/metis.shtml

    C'mon man........

    In Texas, we call this "Hinky"-- sorry

    Life and Earth will not judge you. Life has given you choice – yet, all is not your choosing. There are the many challenges of Life. These challenges have been called by you and pressed in upon you. Everyone will learn from their challenges. There is no Growing without challenge. Your greatest challenge is meeting your Self and teaching your Self within your interactions with Life; all Beingness of Earth, including humans




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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  Thunder Bow on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:25 pm

    Those who critical of this book this book with out reading it, should be ignored. I found the book to be a history book, not a "New Age" book or "Obama Care". Running away after pasting a Label leads to ignorance.
    The author of this message was banned from the forum - See the message
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    Re: Vision Quest

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:21 pm

    Fantastic!!!!!    I couldn't take it all in but got the point of it!   What you can learn from a little mouse....Sometimes it only takes one small voice to teach us.

    Not a big roaring voice to show us the way!

    Thank you for teaching us....

    Joan

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