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    Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

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    SpiritVoices
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    Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:07 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    Did you know that new spirits arriving in the spirit world enter training for communication through a medium to be able to pass messages to loved ones in the Physical World?

    Joan
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  Detlef on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:03 am

    kardecian wrote:
    Detlef wrote:
    from the book: The Spirits' Book   Allen Kardec

    The Soul


    134. What is the soul?

    "An incarnate spirit."                He could not be further from the truth.
    - What was the soul before its union with a body?
    "A spirit."                        again       He could not be further from the truth.
    - Souls and spirits are, then, the very same thing?   

    "Yes; souls are only spirits. Before uniting itself with a body, the soul is one of the intelligent
    beings who people the invisible world, and who temporarily assume a fleshly body in order to
    effect their purification and enlightenment."         The soul creates spirit (an energy construct ) in order to be able connect    with a physical body

    135. Is there in man anything else than a soul and a body?'
    "There is the link which unites the soul and the body."
    Of cause the soul is never in the body Yes the link is there, as well as spirit.


     Hi Detlef,
    I don't see what this has to do with Joan's post. But, I personally think that Kardec's info is pretty spot on here. My understanding is like Kardec's, as most Spiritualists I know would agree with him. Your idea that 'soul creates spirit' is totally foreign to my ears. I've never heard of such a thing.  My understanding is that we are soul/spirit (probably simply a translation thing) and that only God can create spirit.  I've never heard of a 'soul creating a spirit.' Also, the soul is in the body. There is a link, but the soul dwells in the body.  Where did you get your information from?  Also, perhaps you should start another thread on this subject, as it really doesn't have anything to do with Joan's post.
    I get the feeling you are antagonistic towards Spiritism and Allan Kardec. If that is the case, perhaps you should start a thread on the subject and get it out of your system.
    Mike

     then have it deleted please
    I have no intention to enter a discussion about, what and who is god, if we would discuss the term god, or soul or spirit.
    After all you follow doctrine, as it seams. That's OK I choose not to.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:21 am

    mac wrote: " But, I personally think that Kardec's info is pretty spot on here. My understanding is like Kardec's, as most Spiritualists I know would agree with him."  As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most other Spiritualists would agree with him....


     "Your idea that 'soul creates spirit' is totally foreign to my ears. I've never heard of such a thing.  My understanding is that we are soul/spirit (probably simply a translation thing) and that only God can create spirit."  I agree with the first section of this paragraph but disagree that "...only God can create spirit."

     If you mean discarnate individuals when you say 'spirit' then the way I understand things is that God doesn't create them.  Perhaps it's semantics getting in the way?

    But if you mean the life-force that we call 'spirit', something found in everything and everybody, then God didn't create that either.  Spirit is and spirit always has been - there wasn't a point when it was created because that would mean that it didn't exist before.
    Hi Mac,
    I think part our disagreement might be semantics.  However, I do believe that 'spirits' or 'souls' are 'created' simple and ignorant, and that they progress upwards from there. Whether the substance of the 'spirit' or 'soul' has always existed... probably.  However, I do (personally) believe that it's God Who first causes that 'life' to enter into the 'material' world.  Whether that life is part of God, or whether God creates it, I can't say for sure.  I'm not sure anyone can say for sure.  I know the Higher Spirits are not able (or perhaps are not permitted) to dispel this.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:33 am

    spiritone* wrote:My belief is, once we are Souls again, we have incarnated many times, so we have abilities we wouldn't have as humans. I understand that we as souls who want to contact the other side know we have to lower our vibrations and that the contact on this side has to raise their vibrations. I have never read anything about having to learn from a medium how to do that. Of course I haven't read the book Joan read. I plan on looking up that book now. Hope I can find it in the US.

    I'm sure Mediums who pass have special positions on the other side.  It would be interesting to read a book that talks about that. Has anyone ever read one you can recommend, other than the one Joan mentioned?

    :hugz:

     Hi Spiritone,
    I don't find Allan Kardec's outdated at all. The messages in the book are from the Higher Spirits, and are eternal.  The messages in the books are applicable for all ages. I'd try the Chicago Spiritist Group ( http://spiritistsocietyofchicago.org/books.php ) or the Baltimore group ( http://www.ssbaltimore.org/Meetings.html ) to order books from.  Spiritists aren't necessarily the best at putting together navigatable websites it seems.  But, if you run into trouble with ordering, call the Baltimore group via phone and leave a message (or email).
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:41 am

    Mac, you said "As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most other Spiritualists would agree with him...." And I disagree with you. I've been involved with Spiritualism since 1985. My grandmother was a Medium. I've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec. I think it's a matter of the TYPE of Spiritualism one is involved in. You are what I'd call a SECULAR SPIRITUALIST. The Spiritualists I've always been involved with would not be considered Secularist. I also know for a fact that at least one other Spiritualist on this site (who is in Britain) would agree with Kardec also.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:10 am

    Basically I found the Spiritist kind of spiritualism pretty clear and easy to understand,better than our kind here.
    I find it more believable and simple taking God into consideration.
     
    ...and the idea of training new spirits to communicate with their loved ones was one of their considerations first and foremost.
    Like moving to another country where we know we may not be able to visit as much as we used to when in close proximity with those loved ones.

    Great discussion,you have done well,lads......

    Joan xx

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:22 am

    kardecian wrote:
    mac wrote: " But, I personally think that Kardec's info is pretty spot on here. My understanding is like Kardec's, as most Spiritualists I know would agree with him."  As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most othe..............
    But if you mean the life-force that we call 'spirit', something found in everything and everybody, then God didn't create that either.  Spirit is and spirit always has been - there wasn't a point when it was created because that would mean that it didn't exist before.
    Hi Mac,
    I think part our disagreement might be semantics.  However, I do believe that 'spirits' or 'souls' are 'created' simple and ignorant, and that they progress upwards from there. Whether the substance of the 'spirit' or 'soul' has always existed... probably.  However, I do (personally) believe that it's God Who first causes that 'life' to enter into the 'material' world.  Whether that life is part of God, or whether God creates it, I can't say for sure.  I'm not sure anyone can say for sure.  I know the Higher Spirits are not able (or perhaps are not permitted) to dispel this.
    It's true that words can get in the way but as they are all we have to communicate with one another I think we should do our best to choose them carefully.... 

    Plainly there are significant differences between the ways we perceive the situation and I'm comfortable in saying that Silver Birch's words resonate strongly for me and the words of another teacher, recorded by Julie Gale in her book 'Soul Trek', greatly complement and enlarge upon what I learned earlier on.

    I agree that the exact, or even approximate, way that souls/spirits emerge from source is either not permitted to be divulged or is not possible to satisfactorily explain as things stand.  Perhaps in future times the mechanism will emerge.


    Last edited by mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:14 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : unhappy with software formatting)

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:05 am

    kardecian wrote:Mac, you said "As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most other Spiritualists would agree with him...." And I disagree with you.  I've been involved with Spiritualism since 1985.  My grandmother was a Medium.  I've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec.  I think it's a matter of the TYPE of Spiritualism one is involved in.  You are what I'd call a SECULAR SPIRITUALIST.  The Spiritualists I've always been involved with would not be considered Secularist.  I also know for a fact that at least one other Spiritualist on this site (who is in Britain) would agree with Kardec also.  

     As I've mentioned already, the US Spiritualism scene is somewhat different than that in the UK but even then just because you've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec it doesn't mean that most Spiritualists do.   On your final point I don't know the Spiritualist member over here you're referring but one member is hardly statistically significant. Give me sound, meaningful statistics and I might be persuaded.


    It's an interesting situation that Modern Spiritualism emerged in Hydesville, NY but the current US version is significantly different from that found in the UK which - it seems to me - is much less prescriptive.  There's an interesting difference, too, in the way that the US has 'spiritual mediums' and 'psychic mediums' whereas in the UK we just say mediums, those found associated with the religion of Spiritualism mostly/often being evidential mediums.  Nations separated by a common language?


    I've been called many things over my time 'in the spooks' but I've never been described as a 'Secular Spiritualist'.  Those descriptions seem to me to be mutually exclusive.  Although the Spiritualist church has no importance for me as a person, I do support its aims and refer seekers to it as a means of furthering their search.


    And as I totally accept Spiritualism as a religion - as my religion - I can't see how I'd be seen as secular, one definition of which is: "...of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious or spiritual".

     

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:12 am

    Detlef wrote:
    kardecian wrote:
    Detlef wrote:
    from the book: The Spirits' Book   Allen Kardec

    The Soul
    ........
    Of cause the soul is never in the body Yes the link is there, as well as spirit.


     Hi Detlef,
    I don't see what this has to do with Joan's post. But, I personally think that Kardec's info is pretty spot on here. My understanding is like Kardec's, as most Spiritualists I know would agree with hi............ith Joan's post.
    I get the feeling you are antagonistic towards Spiritism and Allan Kardec. If that is the case, perhaps you should start a thread on the subject and get it out of your system.
    Mike

     then have it deleted please
    I have no intention to enter a discussion about, what and who is god, if we would discuss the term god, or soul or spirit.
    After all you follow doctrine, as it seams. That's OK I choose not to.

     I disagree that it should be deleted as I'm more than happy to discuss the notion of god even though this member chooses not to.


    Last edited by mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : visual clarity)

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:16 am

    I think the following called 'Spiritism' is seen, and may be legally registered, as a religion, just as Spiritualism is here, in the US and in Australia.

     I don't understand, then, what a "...Spiritist kind of spiritualism" would be.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:49 pm

    mac wrote:
    kardecian wrote:Mac, you said "As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most other Spiritualists would agree with him...." And I disagree with you.  I've been involved with Spiritualism since 1985.  My grandmother was a Medium.  I've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec.  I think it's a matter of the TYPE of Spiritualism one is involved in.  You are what I'd call a SECULAR SPIRITUALIST.  The Spiritualists I've always been involved with would not be considered Secularist.  I also know for a fact that at least one other Spiritualist on this site (who is in Britain) would agree with Kardec also.  

     As I've mentioned already, the US Spiritualism scene is somewhat different than that in the UK but even then just because you've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec it doesn't mean that most Spiritualists do.   On your final point I don't know the Spiritualist member over here you're referring but one member is hardly statistically significant. Give me sound, meaningful statistics and I might be persuaded.


    It's an interesting situation that Modern Spiritualism emerged in Hydesville, NY but the current US version is significantly different from that found in the UK which - it seems to me - is much less prescriptive.  There's an interesting difference, too, in the way that the US has 'spiritual mediums' and 'psychic mediums' whereas in the UK we just say mediums, those found associated with the religion of Spiritualism mostly/often being evidential mediums.  Nations separated by a common language?


    I've been called many things over my time 'in the spooks' but I've never been described as a 'Secular Spiritualist'.  Those descriptions seem to me to be mutually exclusive.  Although the Spiritualist church has no importance for me as a person, I do support its aims and refer seekers to it as a means of furthering their search.


    And as I totally accept Spiritualism as a religion - as my religion - I can't see how I'd be seen as secular, one definition of which is: "...of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious or spiritual".

     
    Hi Mac,
    I can only go by what I know and observe. I don't know if it's possible to give you sound, meaningful statistics as I'm not sure that there is such a record, even online. I don't believer you would be able to do the same either.
    A good part of the disagreement is probably this: I'm not sure that people truly agree on what Spiritualism truly is.
    Regarding the term "Secular Spiritualist": I'm not the one who coined it. It was floating around another site a while back, and I borrowed the term. It was a Spiritualist medium who coined the term, and who was arguing with another Spiritualist for being too 'secular' if I recall. I agree that it's probably not a very appropriate term.
    Perhaps a good way to approach this whole subject would be to get down to the question, "What exactly is a Spiritualist?"
    I'm out of town for a couple of days.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:28 pm

    A Spiritualist is a person who believes in the fact of life after death.

    Amen.

    Joan

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:40 pm

    kardecian wrote:
    mac wrote:
    kardecian wrote:Mac, you said "As a Spiritualist of some 30 years I would disagree that most other Spiritualists would agree with him...." And I disagree with you.  I've been involved with Spiritualism since 1985.  My grandmother was a Medium.  I've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec.  I think it's a matter of the TYPE of Spiritualism one is involved in.  You are what I'd call a SECULAR SPIRITUALIST.  The Spiritualists I've always been involved with would not be considered Secularist.  I also know for a fact that at least one other Spiritualist on this site (who is in Britain) would agree with Kardec also.  

     As I've mentioned already, the US Spiritualism scene is somewhat different than that in the UK but even then just because you've never personally met a Spiritualist who doesn't agree with Kardec it doesn't mean that most Spiritualists do.   On your final point I don't know the Spiritualist member over here you're referring but one member is hardly statistically significant. Give me sound, meaningful statistics and I might be persuaded.


    It's an interesting situation that Modern Spiritualism emerged in Hydesville, NY but the current US version is significantly different from that found in the UK which - it seems to me - is much less prescriptive.  There's an interesting difference, too, in the way that the US has 'spiritual mediums' and 'psychic mediums' whereas in the UK we just say mediums, those found associated with the religion of Spiritualism mostly/often being evidential mediums.  Nations separated by a common language?


    I've been called many things over my time 'in the spooks' but I've never been described as a 'Secular Spiritualist'.  Those descriptions seem to me to be mutually exclusive.  Although the Spiritualist church has no importance for me as a person, I do support its aims and refer seekers to it as a means of furthering their search.


    And as I totally accept Spiritualism as a religion - as my religion - I can't see how I'd be seen as secular, one definition of which is: "...of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious or spiritual".

     
    Hi Mac,
    I can only go by what I know and observe. I don't know if it's possible to give you sound, meaningful statistics as I'm not sure that there is such a record, even online.  I don't believer you would be able to do the same either.
    A good part of the disagreement is probably this: I'm not sure that people truly agree on what Spiritualism truly is.
    Regarding the term "Secular Spiritualist": I'm not the one who coined it.  It was floating around another site a while back, and I borrowed the term.  It was a Spiritualist medium who coined the term, and who was arguing with another Spiritualist for being too 'secular' if I recall.  I agree that it's probably not a very appropriate term.  
    Perhaps a good way to approach this whole subject would be to get down to the question, "What exactly is a Spiritualist?"
    I'm out of town for a couple of days.



     Had you stopped at saying you don't personally know anyone who disagrees with Kardec's stance you'd have been accurate.  Going beyond to draw general inferences from your personal experience is where you drifted off.

    I'm confident that folk do know what Spiritualism is for themselves even if that's not in line with what it is for others.  That's why I've emphasized the differences between US/UK/Australian 'versions' - there's no disagreement over that I'd guess?  You did get my related, illustrative point about mediumship, I hope?

    You may not have coined the term 'Secular Spiritualist' but you did use it in connection with myself - glad you agree it wasn't appropriate.

    For me it's easy to define what a Spiritualist is but I don't expect others to adopt my definition unless they feel comfortable with it - it's a subject I've discussed at length over many years online.  I've been told I can't be a Spiritualist because of this or that but no-one can tell me what I can, or can't, be according to their personal definition or beliefs.



    Maybe you'd like to discuss/debate the last point in a separate thread when you're next online?

     


    Last edited by mac on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:34 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : added 'in')
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:28 pm

    Have we agreed that training for new comers into spirit is needed?   
    Some say 'no' with reason some say 'yes' with reason.

    But who actually passes the messages on between spirit and taker?
    From either end?     Who is in the middle of spirit and receiver?

    I would say an experienced medium...So does it make any difference if spirit have training or not?

    :yawning: 

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:08 am

    mac wrote:I think the following called 'Spiritism' is seen, and may be legally registered, as a religion, just as Spiritualism is here, in the US and in Australia.

     I don't understand, then, what a "...Spiritist kind of spiritualism" would be.

    As I've said, in our area there is not a big difference between Spiritism and Spiritualism. A 'Spiritst kind of Spiritualism' is what you get here in Oregon. I can think of one Spiritist group in Oregon and 4 Spiritualist Churches in our area. One Spirtualist Church has adopted the NSU (?) statement of doctrine; 2 are clearly Christian and the last one I don't know much about.
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:14 am

    ...to be perfectly honest,I cannot see much difference myself.

    The main point being.....we all pass to spirit after physical death..

    Spiritism and Spiritualism,not much difference between the two....

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:54 am

    kardecian wrote:
    mac wrote:I think the following called 'Spiritism' is seen, and may be legally registered, as a religion, just as Spiritualism is here, in the US and in Australia.

     I don't understand, then, what a "...Spiritist kind of spiritualism" would be.

    As I've said, in our area there is not a big difference between Spiritism and Spiritualism. A 'Spiritst kind of Spiritualism' is what you get here in Oregon.  I can think of one Spiritist group in Oregon and 4 Spiritualist Churches in our area.  One Spirtualist Church has adopted the NSU (?) statement of doctrine; 2 are clearly Christian and the last one I don't know much about.



     Put more simply, perhaps, would be that a Spiritist kind of spiritualism would be 'Spiritism' - wouldn't you agree?

     As for the others, Christian Spiritualist churches are pretty easy to recognize based on their emphasis of Jesus' role etc.

    Of the last couple you mention, one presumably has adopted the the (UK) SNU's 'Seven Principles' which might make it appear similar to the UK's plain-or-vanilla Spiritualism found in churches.

    I've often had to make the point before, however, that Spiritualism isn't found only in its churches.  I'm a dedicated Spiritualist but one who rarely visits a church.

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:59 am

     Did anyone follow the link to YouTube I posted earlier?  If so, what were your reactions/thoughts to the videos?
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:38 pm

    mac wrote: Did anyone follow the link to YouTube I posted earlier?  If so, what were your reactions/thoughts to the videos?

    Hi Mac,
    I saw the Youtube video you are mentioning. Although I think the fellow in the video is accurate, the presentation bothered me. I don't know what it is... the suit, the canned answers, etc. bother me. It's the presentation-style I didn't like.

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  mac on Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:57 pm

    kardecian wrote:
    mac wrote: Did anyone follow the link to YouTube I posted earlier?  If so, what were your reactions/thoughts to the videos?

    Hi Mac,
    I saw the Youtube video you are mentioning.  Although I think the fellow in the video is accurate, the presentation bothered me.  I don't know what it is... the suit, the canned answers, etc. bother me.  It's the presentation-style I didn't like.

    I thought the presentation allowed time for individuals whose first language isn't English to access what was being said. 

    But focusing on the the content, were the
    Spiritist teachings there the ones that guide your church or you personally?
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  kardecian on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:42 am

    mac wrote:
    kardecian wrote:
    mac wrote: Did anyone follow the link to YouTube I posted earlier?  If so, what were your reactions/thoughts to the videos?

    Hi Mac,
    I saw the Youtube video you are mentioning.  Although I think the fellow in the video is accurate, the presentation bothered me.  I don't know what it is... the suit, the canned answers, etc. bother me.  It's the presentation-style I didn't like.

    I thought the presentation allowed time for individuals whose first language isn't English to access what was being said. 

    But focusing on the the content, were the
    Spiritist teachings there the ones that guide your church or you personally?

    Mac, I saw that video on YouTube a while back, so I didn't view it in detail when you posted it. We just went to a new server, and now I can't view anything that requires Java Script. So, I can't play any videos on the computer. I'd like to view the video before I comment too much on it. But, offhand I'd say "Yes, that basic philosophy is what I believe in, and it's also the basic philosophy of the two Spiritualist Churches I've been associated with, as well as the Spirits group I attend in Portland."

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  spiritone* on Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:19 pm

    SpiritVoices wrote:Did you know that new spirits arriving in the spirit world enter training for communication through a medium to be able to pass messages to loved ones in the Physical World?

    Joan
     Joan, I just read yesterday that when we are in our spirit body we have all mediumship abilities. I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense. We know what everyone is doing, we can be more than one place at the same time, we can read minds, we can transport ourselves into human bodies and other objects. 
    I don't know if we have to relearn that or if we just are mediums immediately, I guess I have to read further in this book.:hugz:
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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:11 pm

    spiritone* wrote:
    SpiritVoices wrote:Did you know that new spirits arriving in the spirit world enter training for communication through a medium to be able to pass messages to loved ones in the Physical World?

    Joan
     Joan, I just read yesterday that when we are in our spirit body we have all mediumship abilities. I hadn't thought about that before, but it makes sense. We know what everyone is doing, we can be more than one place at the same time, we can read minds, we can transport ourselves into human bodies and other objects. 
    I don't know if we have to relearn that or if we just are mediums immediately, I guess I have to read further in this book.:hugz:
     So did I,Katt.   I still think that but like someone said 'we all have to learn lessons in the spirit world like we do here'.
    I have noticed that when a new spirit arrives over there,the messages seem very short.   But that may mean the medium is having problems bringing the messages through.
    I really don't know,just guessing here....
    I wonder if in the future messages from spirit will flow more easily.   
    Or another future way of bringing spirit and physical together more easily.

    :hugz: 

    Joan x

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    Re: Training for Newcomers to the Spirit World.

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