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    Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

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    zerdini
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    Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  zerdini on Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:02 pm

    In January’s Two Worlds, which is available today both online or as a printed copy via the post, Spiritualists’ National Union president David Bruton takes part in a hard-hitting interview with Tony Ortzen, the magazine’s editor. Its new website is at www.twoworldsmag.co.uk/

    I understand that Mr Bruton answered the questions so fully and frankly that a second instalment of the interview will appear in Two Worlds February edition. In the January magazine, he answers the following points:

    As anyone who followed it on internet sites knows, were it not so tragic, the union’s liquidation of Psychic Press (1995) Ltd, which owned “Psychic News,” was a complete and utter farce. How would you answer this charge?

    It’s often hard to say, “I’m sorry,” but do you think any apologies are due? If so, to whom?

    There are plans to upgrade the Arthur Findlay College to something like a four or five-star hotel, with wet rooms, etc. How is the average Spiritualist, many of whom are on fixed incomes or very modest wages, going to afford courses at the college?

    Still with money, the SNU’s Trust, which is, in effect, a building society, recently paid £1 million for a property in Edinburgh. How can you possibly justify this massive amount when many of your churches must be struggling, with the average church treasurer counting 5p and 10p pieces, let alone foreign currency, slot machine coins and various worthless tokens, in the collection plate?

    Fairly frequently, I hear of petty squabbles within union churches, sometimes with entire committees or several members resigning. How’s that for spiritual behaviour?

    I heard a rumour, which may be wrong, that the union has started another crusade against its churches displaying orthodox trappings, like pictures of Jesus or a crucifix. Hasn’t the SNU got bigger and better things to worry about like getting out there to promote Spiritualism?
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:47 pm

    Hi Zerdini

    I heard a rumour, which may be wrong, that the union has started another crusade against its churches displaying orthodox trappings, like pictures of Jesus or a crucifix. Hasn’t the SNU got bigger and better things to worry about like getting out there to promote Spiritualism?

    It is sadly not a rumour and is quite true--my church in the North west received notice that all religeous symbols from any religeon should not be displayed in the church. The president enquired whether this included the crucifix and was told that was the case.

    Peter

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  zerdini on Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:58 pm

    gilly wrote:Hi Zerdini

    I heard a rumour, which may be wrong, that the union has started another crusade against its churches displaying orthodox trappings, like pictures of Jesus or a crucifix. Hasn’t the SNU got bigger and better things to worry about like getting out there to promote Spiritualism?

    It is sadly not a rumour and is quite true--my church in the North west received notice that all religeous symbols from any religeon should not be displayed in the church. The president enquired whether this included the crucifix and was told that was the case.

    Peter

    Hi Peter

    These questions and others are answered by the President of the SNU, David Bruton, in the Jan and Feb 2012 issues of "Two Worlds".

    Z

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  skye on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 am

    gilly wrote:Hi Zerdini

    I heard a rumour, which may be wrong, that the union has started another crusade against its churches displaying orthodox trappings, like pictures of Jesus or a crucifix. Hasn’t the SNU got bigger and better things to worry about like getting out there to promote Spiritualism?

    It is sadly not a rumour and is quite true--my church in the North west received notice that all religeous symbols from any religeon should not be displayed in the church. The president enquired whether this included the crucifix and was told that was the case.

    Peter
    Hi peter,

    The crucifix represents Jesus and Christianity. Why would a Spiritualist church want to display religious items that have nothing to do with the spiritual principles or with Spiritualism itself?
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:52 am

    Hi Skye

    Because many of the spiritualists that attend the SNU churches believe in Jesus in one form or another. many have come to spiritualism from another christian denomination.

    Another thread has been discussing why the spiritualist churches are emptying!!!

    For my part I am happy to allow people to believe in whatever way they choose. It is another example of 'ORGANIZED' religeon dictating to individuals. It is why I have found myself at odds with so many church people over the years.

    Again for my part--I accept Jesus as the greatest 'healer' we have seen, I also believe he was crucified. That is enough for me to accept a crucifix in my spiritualist church.

    PPLLnL

    Peter
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:59 am

    That is what I was brought up to believe in,Peter.

    It is hard to drop one faith's in a matter of weeks to believe in something that is entirely strange to what we have been taught from childhood.

    Joanie

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    Post  skye on Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:31 pm

    gilly wrote:Hi Skye

    Because many of the spiritualists that attend the SNU churches believe in Jesus in one form or another. many have come to spiritualism from another christian denomination.

    Another thread has been discussing why the spiritualist churches are emptying!!!

    For my part I am happy to allow people to believe in whatever way they choose. It is another example of 'ORGANIZED' religeon dictating to individuals. It is why I have found myself at odds with so many church people over the years.

    Again for my part--I accept Jesus as the greatest 'healer' we have seen, I also believe he was crucified. That is enough for me to accept a crucifix in my spiritualist church.

    PPLLnL

    Peter

    Hi Peter,

    As you know it is through mediumship that factual evidence of our continual human survival is given which promotes the religion of Spiritualism, not doctrine or dogma or belief as in orthodox religions.


    It's also been my experience that Spiritualism does not object to people having their own religious beliefs, nor do they dictate to individuals how they should or shouldn't lead their lives. Spiritualist's accept this is a personal decision which each person themselves must make.


    My own experience within Spiritualism and its churches has been one where Spiritualists have always welcomed people of any religious denomination through their doors. Unlike a number of other religious groups whereby they insist you must be an adherent of their particular faith before allowing this to happen. However, this surely does not give people of other religions the right to dictate to Spiritualist's what they should or should not display in their own churches?


    Furthermore, I have noticed a large majority of Spiritualist's actually accept Jesus, as a man, not a saviour. He may well have been crucified, as crucifixation was one way of dealing with people whom for whatever reason offended those in authority at that time. Some accept he was indeed a great healer and an excellent medium. Some may say his teachings are as applicable today as they were when he was in the flesh.


    A crucifix is acceptable in your life, why shouldn't it be. As far as I am aware no one is wanting to change this for you. But to Spiritualist's who are adherents to the religion of today's Modern Spiritualism and/or to SNU direction, a crucifix has no relevance or importance whatsoever.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:55 pm

    Hello Skye

    A crucifix is acceptable in your life, why shouldn't it be. As far as I am aware no one is wanting to change this for you. But to Spiritualist's who are adherents to the religion of today's Modern Spiritualism and/or to SNU direction, a crucifix has no relevance or importance whatsoever.



    I understand what you are saying! BUT I know many who attend spiritualist churches who for whatever reason are offended by this decision.

    The SNU are also changing something that is embedded into the 'character' of many churches.

    For my part I go back to something I have already said-"Once a religion becomes organised with leaders who do not live with the day to day running of individual congregations a necessity for order and conformity begins to tear the organisation apart."

    Study history and you will see politics destroying the religions that become organised bodies who want a voice on the national or international stage.

    The SNU are about to lose many who have been the foundation of modern day spiritualism.

    PPLLnL

    Peter

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  skye on Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:44 pm

    People may well take offence Peter, but it doesn't change the fact that they are attending a Spiritualist church by choice. Shouldn't it be the actual service, a combination of spiritual philosophy, mediumship and healing which is of more importance for each individual?

    Personally, I consider it arrogant how some people can come to expect a religion to exhibit another person's religious views when it's neither practiced or taught within the said church, it is offensive. Would other religions be willing to display, 'The Seven Principles of Spiritualism' in their place of worship? I expect we both know the answer to this question!

    Also, just because some Presidents and committee members of individual churches have allowed a crucifix to be displayed doesn't make this a right, likewise neither does reiki healing when they can use their own trained spiritual healers. I believe it's down to money and popularity, rather than a sincere commitment towards Spiritualism.

    Furthermore, no one can say what will happen in regard to your assumption about people leaving Spiritualism. This may be right or wrong, only time will tell. Then again, perhaps we could also consider these people who are allegedly taking offence, have no real intention of becoming practicing supporters or adherents of Spiritualism. Therefore, imo, the SNU are right to dismiss such ideas, if indeed this is the case.

    The SNU have made mistakes, no one can deny that. I can also accept and understand the SNU have to move into this century and make the necessary changes but I hope it's not at the expense of losing all that Spiritualism stands for.

    Perhaps it would be helpful if we were to buy a copy of the 'Two Worlds' magazine. We will then know what is being planned by the SNU.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:01 pm

    Hello Skye

    I am not sure you will understand but I thank you for your honest responses!!

    I started my spiritual journey at an independant spiritualist church. I then joined an SNU church where I first started my journey. Joined and became a committee member. I have recently moved to an area where SNU churches are rare --somerset has no SNU churches that I can find!

    I have found a Christian Spiritualist Church and an independant spiritual development group close to where I am living.

    Your words have explained to me why I am here, closer to my family but far from my spiritual beginnings.

    I thank you again from the bottom of my heart.

    PPLLnL

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  mac on Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:20 pm

    skye wrote:People may well take offence Peter, but it doesn't change the fact that they are attending a Spiritualist church by choice. Shouldn't it be the actual service, a combination of spiritual philosophy, mediumship and healing which is of more importance for each individual?

    Personally, I consider it arrogant how some people can come to expect a religion to exhibit another person's religious views when it's neither practiced or taught within the said church, it is offensive. Would other religions be willing to display, 'The Seven Principles of Spiritualism' in their place of worship? I expect we both know the answer to this question!

    Also, just because some Presidents and committee members of individual churches have allowed a crucifix to be displayed doesn't make this a right, likewise neither does reiki healing when they can use their own trained spiritual healers. I believe it's down to money and popularity, rather than a sincere commitment towards Spiritualism.

    Furthermore, no one can say what will happen in regard to your assumption about people leaving Spiritualism. This may be right or wrong, only time will tell. Then again, perhaps we could also consider these people who are allegedly taking offence, have no real intention of becoming practicing supporters or adherents of Spiritualism. Therefore, imo, the SNU are right to dismiss such ideas, if indeed this is the case.

    The SNU have made mistakes, no one can deny that. I can also accept and understand the SNU have to move into this century and make the necessary changes but I hope it's not at the expense of losing all that Spiritualism stands for.

    Perhaps it would be helpful if we were to buy a copy of the 'Two Worlds' magazine. We will then know what is being planned by the SNU.

    well said, B

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  skye on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:32 pm

    Hello Peter,

    you're right, I don't understand but I'm sure that's more than ok. :hugz:

    However, I truly believe what is of greater importance is that people aim to treat all souls - whatever form they take on - in a manner which is compatible with their own spiritual progress, rather than what church one may or may not attend. Obviously being the human beings that we are, and dependant upon the circumstances, at times this may prove to be personally challenging, but no one said life was easy.

    I would much prefer to live close to my family even if this meant not having an SNU church nearby. The experiences and knowledge I have gained will never be lost or forgotten.

    Besides the 'Two Worlds' magazine and the recent comeback of 'The Psychic News' newspaper will without doubt keep me informed of what is happening in the spiritual community.

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  skye on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:33 pm

    Thank you K.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:03 pm

    Hello Skye

    Am sorry but cannot help not thinking about a 93 year old lady from my old church--she played the organ and has been a member since she was a teenager. She led the Carol service for many years up till 2009 when poor health prevented her from doing so.

    She and half a dozen others have helped keep the church going for over half a century--dating back before it was an SNU affiliated church. They were and are horified by this dictat.

    Do they not count for anything in this bright new SNU world????

    Peter

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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  skye on Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:45 pm

    gilly wrote:Hello Skye

    Am sorry but cannot help not thinking about a 93 year old lady from my old church--she played the organ and has been a member since she was a teenager. She led the Carol service for many years up till 2009 when poor health prevented her from doing so.

    She and half a dozen others have helped keep the church going for over half a century--dating back before it was an SNU affiliated church. They were and are horified by this dictat.

    Do they not count for anything in this bright new SNU world????

    Peter


    Only the SNU can answer that Peter as i'm sure you already know or at best have your suspicions. However, 'The Seven Priniciples of Spiritualism' may well direct you to the answer you seek on their behalf.

    My personal uptake on it is that what went on before SNU took over has nothing whatsoever to do with the SNU, nor should it. I'm sad to hear people are horrified and see it as dictatorship but then again they are Christian Spiritualists so perhaps it's understandable on their part.

    Perhaps you could direct them to the book 'Life In The World Unseen' it is available on the internet to read. Here is a snippet that may interest them knowing that the evidence came from a man who once belonged to the cloth.They may enjoy it.

    "Life in the World Unseen" gives one of the most comprehensive accounts of what follows physical death. Received through the clairaudient mediumship of Anthony Borgia, an old friend to the author, Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson, who was himself a son of a former Bishop of Canterbury. It strongly supports and emphasizes the cause & effect relationship that exists between this life and the next. The information contained in this book was conveyed from the spirit world to a friend and acquaintance, so it is told in the first person, as one who now resides in the spirit world.

    The communicator, Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson, delightfully shows us, with both humour and compassion, how many of our preconceived notions of 'the next life' are substantially incorrect. One of the great regrets from his earth life was that he too added to this general misconception by his writing The Necromancers, a book which dealt with the subject of spirit return, but which gave a distorted view of the facts. The writing of the present volume, however, has enabled Monsignor to redress his wrongs.

    On passing to the spirit world, every person, regardless of color or creed, will find themselves the inheritors of precisely the spiritual abode to which their earthly lives have befitted them. The spirit world is the land of the great harvest, the seeds of which were sown upon the earth: "Whatever a man sows, that shall he reap" has its full and just application. Those who find themselves in the bleak and meagre surroundings of the dark realms have only themselves to reproach, for what they see about them is an outward expression of the current state of their spiritual progression. Just as the beauties of the light realms are created and upheld by theirs inhabitants, so have the conditions of the dark realms been brought about: beauty of deed and thought can produce nothing but beauty.


    I think our conversation has overtaken the OP thread, and I apologise to Zerdini for doing so. Rest assured Z it will not happen again.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:22 pm

    gilly wrote:Hello Skye

    Am sorry but cannot help not thinking about a 93 year old lady from my old church--she played the organ and has been a member since she was a teenager. She led the Carol service for many years up till 2009 when poor health prevented her from doing so.

    She and half a dozen others have helped keep the church going for over half a century--dating back before it was an SNU affiliated church. They were and are horified by this dictat.

    Do they not count for anything in this bright new SNU world????

    Peter



    I feel for that old lady,Peter.

    What is happening to the old standards of yesterday?

    The church I attend has many old folk who have put their life into spiritualism.

    Given their time up to serve the spiritualist church and religion but I suppose what the powers to be want,they will get.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:24 pm

    Joanie wrote:
    gilly wrote:Hello Skye

    Am sorry but cannot help not thinking about a 93 year old lady from my old church--she played the organ and has been a member since she was a teenager. She led the Carol service for many years up till 2009 when poor health prevented her from doing so.

    She and half a dozen others have helped keep the church going for over half a century--dating back before it was an SNU affiliated church. They were and are horified by this dictat.

    Do they not count for anything in this bright new SNU world????

    Peter



    I feel for that old lady,Peter.

    What is happening to the old standards of yesterday?

    The church I attend has many old folk who have put their life into spiritualism.

    Given their time up to serve the spiritualist church and religion but I suppose what the powers to be want,they will get.

    Hello Joanie

    I am pleased you understand! BUT

    but I suppose what the powers to be want,they will get.

    This may have been true for a long while --I have a feeling it will not last.

    BUT it depends which 'powers' you are referring to??????

    PPLLnL dear lady

    Peter
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:45 pm

    gilly wrote:
    Joanie wrote:
    gilly wrote:Hello Skye

    Am sorry but cannot help not thinking about a 93 year old lady from my old church--she played the organ and has been a member since she was a teenager. She led the Carol service for many years up till 2009 when poor health prevented her from doing so.

    She and half a dozen others have helped keep the church going for over half a century--dating back before it was an SNU affiliated church. They were and are horified by this dictat.

    Do they not count for anything in this bright new SNU world????

    Peter



    I feel for that old lady,Peter.

    What is happening to the old standards of yesterday?

    The church I attend has many old folk who have put their life into spiritualism.

    Given their time up to serve the spiritualist church and religion but I suppose what the powers to be want,they will get.

    Hello Joanie

    I am pleased you understand! BUT

    but I suppose what the powers to be want,they will get.

    This may have been true for a long while --I have a feeling it will not last.

    BUT it depends which 'powers' you are referring to??????

    PPLLnL dear lady

    Peter



    I presume the SNU if I have the facts straight,Peter.
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  gilly on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:50 pm

    Hello Joanie

    I believe in a power that is even greater than the SNU!

    And ultimately so do you and Skye and the rest!!!!

    Peter
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    Re: Jan 2012 "Two Worlds" online now.

    Post  SpiritVoices on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:00 pm

    and let's hope that power works quickly,Peter.


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