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    Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

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    ameliorate
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    Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:17 pm

    First topic message reminder :

    In a recent discussion I am having on this forum, I have grown to be both puzzled and sceptical about mediums and what is being contacted exactly.  I have started this thread with an open mind to find some answers, i.e. do not mind being proved wrong if it makes sense.

    My understanding is that our ego comprises of our thoughts, emotions, memories etc - in short, our worldly ID and how we interact with the world.  This is what dies and our spirit lives on/our essence.

    So I do not understand when mediums contact the dead and pass on messages as if the spirit can think and feel...since thoughts, emotions and memories spring from our ego/worldly ID and our mind surely dies once the brain does.

    I read this today....


    "Mental mediumship" is communication of spirits with a medium by telepathy. The medium mentally "hears" (clairaudience), "sees" (clairvoyance), and/or feels (clairsentience) messages from spirits.

    The key word here is telepathy.  What I am wondering is whether the medium is picking up (via telepathy) the thoughts, feelings and memories from the person wishing to make contact with the dead and, hence, (for instance) would detect a nickname.  If so, it is no great stretch to pass on the badly needed reassurance of love etc. 

    I am not saying that mediums are intentionally fake.  Of course there are frauds, e.g. even Doris Stokes was caught out (by the investigator Ian Wilson) i.e. revealed to have done research and planted specific people in her audience!!!  For those who feel they genuinely have the gift, please explain what your experience is i.e. what is being contacted since thinking and feeling is of mind - not spirit.


    I would greatly appreciate honest feedback.  I wish to know the truth of what is going on.
    Thank you.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:36 pm

    ameliorate wrote:
    mac wrote:Some years ago I ran forum discussion threads seeking to understand what members meant when using certain words and terms. There were significant differences between our individual understanding.

    Add to that the differing ways that individuals experience communication and it's plain to me that the words I learned 30 years ago, the ones I have used routinely since, do not appear to work in the same way for many others. 

    I am a Spiritualist for whom communication has a simple meaning but over recent years I've realised, and accepted, that for others communication can mean something very different. 

    None of us are necessarily wrong - we simply see things in different ways.
    This is one of the reasons why a forum is so useful, i.e. there is the possibility of establishing what certain words mean for us individually and thereby enabling the possibility of reaching a better understanding of how a word is used.  Clarifying how a word is used is often quite crucial when dealing with matters that are not visible!
    I've often thought it would be helpful to quoin words and terms to avoid the present confusion and ambiguity.  'Course you'd still have to get folk to use 'em!  :happy:
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:09 pm

    mac wrote:
    ameliorate wrote:
    mac wrote:Some years ago I ran forum discussion threads seeking to understand what members meant when using certain words and terms. There were significant differences between our individual understanding.

    Add to that the differing ways that individuals experience communication and it's plain to me that the words I learned 30 years ago, the ones I have used routinely since, do not appear to work in the same way for many others. 

    I am a Spiritualist for whom communication has a simple meaning but over recent years I've realised, and accepted, that for others communication can mean something very different. 

    None of us are necessarily wrong - we simply see things in different ways.
    This is one of the reasons why a forum is so useful, i.e. there is the possibility of establishing what certain words mean for us individually and thereby enabling the possibility of reaching a better understanding of how a word is used.  Clarifying how a word is used is often quite crucial when dealing with matters that are not visible!
    I've often thought it would be helpful to quoin words and terms to avoid the present confusion and ambiguity.  'Course you'd still have to get folk to use 'em!  :happy:
    I realise people may have different associations with certain words so, wherever I can, if I am making a crucial point I do try and explain what the word means to me.

    You can get all kinds of specialised dictionaries, e.g. ones on medical terms, psychology etc.  I realise why there isn't one on spirituality - far too hazy...like trying to nail jelly! 

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:25 pm

    ameliorate wrote:
    mac wrote:
    ameliorate wrote:
    mac wrote:Some years ago I ran forum discussion threads seeking to understand what members meant when using certain words and terms. There were significant differences between our individual understanding.

    Add to that the differing ways that individuals experience communication and it's plain to me that the words I learned 30 years ago, the ones I have used routinely since, do not appear to work in the same way for many others. 

    I am a Spiritualist for whom communication has a simple meaning but over recent years I've realised, and accepted, that for others communication can mean something very different. 

    None of us are necessarily wrong - we simply see things in different ways.
    This is one of the reasons why a forum is so useful, i.e. there is the possibility of establishing what certain words mean for us individually and thereby enabling the possibility of reaching a better understanding of how a word is used.  Clarifying how a word is used is often quite crucial when dealing with matters that are not visible!
    I've often thought it would be helpful to quoin words and terms to avoid the present confusion and ambiguity.  'Course you'd still have to get folk to use 'em!  :happy:
    I realise people may have different associations with certain words so, wherever I can, if I am making a crucial point I do try and explain what the word means to me.

    You can get all kinds of specialised dictionaries, e.g. ones on medical terms, psychology etc.  I realise why there isn't one on spirituality - far too hazy...like trying to nail jelly! 
    I often adopt the same principle but repeatedly making the effort I find tedious and it's frustrating if others don't do the same.  I put it down to my impatience brought on by old age!
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:41 pm

    Mac, I've talked to spiritualists that believe that evidential mediumship is proof and that's ok, except when it leads to the interpretation of other peoples experiences as being something less than.  

    Many people have experienced different experiences, I have more than 40 years of a very special and meaningful relationship, of guidance, understanding and learning through spiritual communication. I don't try to prove it to anyone and I don't boast of rightness or show off my abilities to impress people... this is because that communication is something very personal and very private. 

    But I speak of my personal experiences as being beliefs and put them on an equal level as all other beliefs, because I understand people and I respect people.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:42 pm

    Blueanchor wrote:Thank you Skye for acknowledging that no frame of reference is greater or lesser than another's.

    With reference to what you say regarding spirit perhaps being unaware of the human world, the film 'The Others' portrays this idea extremely well.

    It is a possibility that some people retain their personalities and exist in a spirit/human world. However, there are quite a lot of people like myself (perhaps even millergrls too) that experience communication with spirit that isn't discarnate and doesn't show human traits. Also, the way I experience communication is through different vibrations on varying levels. This is something that I felt the medium, whose vision I spoke of in an earlier post, alluded to. So I'm interested in how you would view this or explain it.

    Could it be that not all spirit exists as dicarnate personality? Or... and this is the theory that I'm exploring, that different aspects of what we view as our self, vibrate at different frequencies, and therefore are communicated with on different vibrational planes of existence?


    I haven't seen the film, 'The Others' although I did watch a couple minutes of a trailer on IMBD earlier. It appears to be an interesting film, however I wouldn't want to compare it to what happens to discarnate beings in the after life. I know there are mischievous spirits who can influence our mind should we resonate on their level. Also residual energy can provide information as if acting as a memory of a person etc. Nonetheless this form of energy will not be able to communicate to a sitter of future events which can give hope to someone. I must add mediumship is not to to be used for predictive purposes, however, some spirit communicators know exactly what their loved ones here need to hear and will express through a medium.
       
    As with any event in life it's down to personal experience that determines ones outlook. My experience is such that I have come to accept people do continue to exist and retain their human characteristics and personalities which are revealed to people in this dimension. I believe also that it is possible for people to communicate with any and all life forms whom may happen to exist in the as yet unknown, but various dimensions throughout the universe. And, providing conditions are harmonious with each other it is probable for communication to take place. I can relate to the different vibrations you experience when attuned to the vibration of beings from these other realms.

    In regard to the medium who spoke of going through a patch of not being able to contact those people living (there is no death - imo) in the world of spirit. All mediums whether they be a Spiritualist medium or not, they will at various stages reach a plateau where spiritual progress seems to stop. Unfortunately there is not much one can do about it, other than accept it as we can not force spirit to communicate. If we do it's likely frustration and  negativity may be experienced and could result in feelings of depression. Some people suggest plateaus provide the opportunity for learning what has been achieved up to date.


    The vision of her going up in an elevator and whooshing past spirit could be her own interpretation of how she is feeling about the situation. Perhaps she was aware her purpose is to function as a medium and be of service whereby this became the motivation to refocus her attention. I've noticed it's a misconception often made by some that spirit are perceived as being in some high up place above. I believe this could be due to orthodox religions who believe in there being a heaven above and a hell below. It is difficult to interpret other people's experiences as nobody knows them as much as they do. I suggest listening to her intuition this will reveal what she may need to hear.  


    I'm of the mindset that spirit is purely the life force energy that exists in all living entities, irrespective of whatever life form is created. We are spirit in the here and now each experiencing life in human form, although our ego's may want us to deny this information. I believe we have within us the potential to attain varying levels of vibration which could result in our communicating and interacting with other species throughout the universe. That being said, I imagine connecting and communicating with other spiritual beings of an unknown source may have a purpose, unfortunately it doesn't offer the comfort that mediumship can to a grieving person, after all it is via a demonstration of evidential mediumship where life after physical death can validate the continuous existence of the human soul. 

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:51 pm

    Blueanchor wrote:Mac, I've talked to spiritualists that believe that evidential mediumship is proof and that's ok, except when it leads to the interpretation of other peoples experiences as being something less than.  

    Many people have experienced different experiences, I have more than 40 years of a very special and meaningful relationship, of guidance, understanding and learning through spiritual communication. I don't try to prove it to anyone and I don't boast of rightness or show off my abilities to impress people... this is because that communication is something very personal and very private. 

    But I speak of my personal experiences as being beliefs and put them on an equal level as all other beliefs, because I understand people and I respect people.
    I can speak only for myself and I'm not one of the Spiritualists you've spoken to. Neither am I someone who sees evidential mediumship as proof of anything nor do I interpret others' experiences as being “….something less than”.

    Many people do indeed have different experiences from those of another.  I haven't been 'in the spooks' as long as you and I haven't had any special or meaningful relationship, guidance or learning through communication.  You are very privileged
    in that. I also don’t have anything to prove to anyone or to boast about or to show off my (non-existent!) abilities to impress people. I respect your right to say as little about your 40 years as you choose and I would not expect you to tell me anything you didn't want to share.  I accept that your communication is very personal and very private and haven’t tried to pry.

    I accept that
    the way you speak about your personal experiences, the way you see them as beliefs, is right for you.  But I’d be very disappointed if I thought you were implying that I should also see my experiences in a similar way. 

    You are confident about your approach and I'm confident about my own.  That's how it should be given we've both been 'at this stuff' for several decades
    each.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Bodhicitta on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:29 am

    Ame: My understanding is that our ego comprises of our thoughts, emotions, memories etc - in short, our worldly ID and how we interact with the world.  This is what dies and our spirit lives on/our essence.

    So I do not understand when mediums contact the dead and pass on messages as if the spirit can think and feel...since thoughts, emotions and memories spring from our ego/worldly ID and our mind surely dies once the brain does.


    Your puzzlement is well founded, your intuition is correct. After death of the flesh there is a period of time when the personal thoughts, feelings, all that is connected to our sensory life here continue to exist.  How long depends on the fondness we had for this sensory world of experiences; the stronger the longer.  

    In short what mediums or psychics see or hear or commune with are just soulless shells.  Blavatsky and other theosophists made a point of teaching just that.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:55 am

    Bodhicitta wrote:
    Ame: My understanding is that our ego comprises of our thoughts, emotions, memories etc - in short, our worldly ID and how we interact with the world.  This is what dies and our spirit lives on/our essence.

    So I do not understand when mediums contact the dead and pass on messages as if the spirit can think and feel...since thoughts, emotions and memories spring from our ego/worldly ID and our mind surely dies once the brain does.


    Your puzzlement is well founded, your intuition is correct. After death of the flesh there is a period of time when the personal thoughts, feelings, all that is connected to our sensory life here continue to exist.  How long depends on the fondness we had for this sensory world of experiences; the stronger the longer.  

    In short what mediums or psychics see or hear or commune with are just soulless shells.  Blavatsky and other theosophists made a point of teaching just that.
    Blavatsky and theosophists may not be the most reliable sources of understanding... Other teachers and guides suggest a different situation altogether.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:46 am

    skye wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Thank you Skye for acknowledging that no frame of reference is greater or lesser than another's.

    With reference to what you say regarding spirit perhaps being unaware of the human world, the film 'The Others' portrays this idea extremely well.

    It is a possibility that some people retain their personalities and exist in a spirit/human world. However, there are quite a lot of people like myself (perhaps even millergrls too) that experience communication with spirit that isn't discarnate and doesn't show human traits. Also, the way I experience communication is through different vibrations on varying levels. This is something that I felt the medium, whose vision I spoke of in an earlier post, alluded to. So I'm interested in how you would view this or explain it.

    Could it be that not all spirit exists as dicarnate personality? Or... and this is the theory that I'm exploring, that different aspects of what we view as our self, vibrate at different frequencies, and therefore are communicated with on different vibrational planes of existence?


    I haven't seen the film, 'The Others' although I did watch a couple minutes of a trailer on IMBD earlier. It appears to be an interesting film, however I wouldn't want to compare it to what happens to discarnate beings in the after life. I know there are mischievous spirits who can influence our mind should we resonate on their level. Also residual energy can provide information as if acting as a memory of a person etc. Nonetheless this form of energy will not be able to communicate to a sitter of future events which can give hope to someone. I must add mediumship is not to to be used for predictive purposes, however, some spirit communicators know exactly what their loved ones here need to hear and will express through a medium.
       
    As with any event in life it's down to personal experience that determines ones outlook. My experience is such that I have come to accept people do continue to exist and retain their human characteristics and personalities which are revealed to people in this dimension. I believe also that it is possible for people to communicate with any and all life forms whom may happen to exist in the as yet unknown, but various dimensions throughout the universe. And, providing conditions are harmonious with each other it is probable for communication to take place. I can relate to the different vibrations you experience when attuned to the vibration of beings from these other realms.

    In regard to the medium who spoke of going through a patch of not being able to contact those people living (there is no death - imo) in the world of spirit. All mediums whether they be a Spiritualist medium or not, they will at various stages reach a plateau where spiritual progress seems to stop. Unfortunately there is not much one can do about it, other than accept it as we can not force spirit to communicate. If we do it's likely frustration and  negativity may be experienced and could result in feelings of depression. Some people suggest plateaus provide the opportunity for learning what has been achieved up to date.


    The vision of her going up in an elevator and whooshing past spirit could be her own interpretation of how she is feeling about the situation. Perhaps she was aware her purpose is to function as a medium and be of service whereby this became the motivation to refocus her attention. I've noticed it's a misconception often made by some that spirit are perceived as being in some high up place above. I believe this could be due to orthodox religions who believe in there being a heaven above and a hell below. It is difficult to interpret other people's experiences as nobody knows them as much as they do. I suggest listening to her intuition this will reveal what she may need to hear.  


    I'm of the mindset that spirit is purely the life force energy that exists in all living entities, irrespective of whatever life form is created. We are spirit in the here and now each experiencing life in human form, although our ego's may want us to deny this information. I believe we have within us the potential to attain varying levels of vibration which could result in our communicating and interacting with other species throughout the universe. That being said, I imagine connecting and communicating with other spiritual beings of an unknown source may have a purpose, unfortunately it doesn't offer the comfort that mediumship can to a grieving person, after all it is via a demonstration of evidential mediumship where life after physical death can validate the continuous existence of the human soul. 
    Thank you for your thoughtful response.
    Yes, the film is perhaps unlikely to depict the spirit world, but it is interesting in that it is from the spirits perspective of hearing the living (I don't want to give too many spoilers).

    If residual memories and thoughts that occurred upon death stay around, how does a medium know that they are not picking up on that?
    In my view, there's no reason that they need to distinguish between it being spirit and other sources of energy as it still has the potential to offer comfort to those that are grieving.

    The medium who told the story about the elevator was speaking about her own development and she has gone on to become a successful medium in the spiritualist church.

    However, in regard to the idea of attaining vibrational levels, I first told her story to make a point with regards to those levels being hierarchical (ie higher being a higher attainment). In this regard I felt that her story demonstrates how she could have communicated with spirits of a higher vibration, but she recognised that her vision was showing her that her purpose was to communicate with discarnates and to offer comfort to the relatives and friends. My point was that we each have our own purpose, and this woman's work has as much worth as the monk that sits on the mountain in a higher vibrational state. Likewise, those higher vibrational communications have as much worth as the communication with discarnates. If we are achieving our purpose, then we are attaining highly.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:58 am

    mac wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Mac, I've talked to spiritualists that believe that evidential mediumship is proof and that's ok, except when it leads to the interpretation of other peoples experiences as being something less than.  

    Many people have experienced different experiences, I have more than 40 years of a very special and meaningful relationship, of guidance, understanding and learning through spiritual communication. I don't try to prove it to anyone and I don't boast of rightness or show off my abilities to impress people... this is because that communication is something very personal and very private. 

    But I speak of my personal experiences as being beliefs and put them on an equal level as all other beliefs, because I understand people and I respect people.
    I can speak only for myself and I'm not one of the Spiritualists you've spoken to. Neither am I someone who sees evidential mediumship as proof of anything nor do I interpret others' experiences as being “….something less than”.

    Many people do indeed have different experiences from those of another.  I haven't been 'in the spooks' as long as you and I haven't had any special or meaningful relationship, guidance or learning through communication.  You are very privileged
    in that. I also don’t have anything to prove to anyone or to boast about or to show off my (non-existent!) abilities to impress people. I respect your right to say as little about your 40 years as you choose and I would not expect you to tell me anything you didn't want to share.  I accept that your communication is very personal and very private and haven’t tried to pry.

    I accept that
    the way you speak about your personal experiences, the way you see them as beliefs, is right for you.  But I’d be very disappointed if I thought you were implying that I should also see my experiences in a similar way. 

    You are confident about your approach and I'm confident about my own.  That's how it should be given we've both been 'at this stuff' for several decades
    each.
    There hasn't been any implication about how you should see your beliefs, if you want to believe they are true and other teachings are less reliable, than that is your choice. I stated very clearly, that I see your beliefs as being beliefs.

    But I also see the way that you respond to other peoples beliefs.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:27 am

    Blueanchor wrote:
    mac wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Mac, I've talked to spiritualists that believe that evidential mediumship is proof and that's ok, except when it leads to the interpretation of other peoples experiences as being something less than.  

    Many people have exp.o boast about or to show off my (non-existent!) abilities to impress people. I respect your right to say as little about your 40 years as you choose and I would not expect you to tel..............
    You are confident about your approach and I'm confident about my own.  That's how it should be given we've both been 'at this stuff' for several decades each.
    There hasn't been any implication about how you should see your beliefs, if you want to believe they are true and other teachings are less reliable, than that is your choice. I stated very clearly, that I see your beliefs as being beliefs.

    But I also see the way that you respond to other peoples beliefs.
    In that last sentence I sense a note of reproval....  :SH:

    Earlier you went to pains to explain you had many years:
    ".... of a very special and meaningful relationship, of guidance, understanding and learning through spiritual communication."  and how you "... speak of my personal experiences as being beliefs and put them on an equal level as all other beliefs, because I understand people and I respect people."  All that's just fine by me but then you continued to speak at length about my beliefs when I have declared that I don't class what underpins my approach as 'my beliefs'.  Forgive me but I sense you're determined to make the point that because you class your 40 years of learning etc. as 'your beliefs' then you are going to class others' learning in the same way.  That sounds a little dismissive, even disrespectful.

    As for your years
    "...of a very special and meaningful relationship" (etc)  I suppose I should claim similar for myself (other than being able to muster only 32 years :mecry: ) but I would feel it might look like one-upmanship.

    In posting #23 you wrote:
    "But I don't believe that what you cite as being 'evidence' is really enough to prove that personalities go off and live in a spirit world. So whilst I respect your belief, I do view it as a belief, no more or less than any other."  Again you appear to seek to demote what I say to being my beliefs and that they are not.  I responded to the effect I couldn't recall having cited anything and asked if you could point out what you had seen.  You didn't respond.

    You claim that:
    "I understand people and I respect people." but from where I'm standing it feels like you haven't actually understood me and by continuing pointedly to refer to "my beliefs" you are not respecting me Perhaps I'm not people?

    But now we're massively off topic and I apologise for the disruption to ameliorate and anyone else wanting to progress the subject of this discussion thread.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:30 pm

    I don't mind the recent posts being off topic.  I am all for exploration of beliefs and how they may (or may not) shape up to what is regarded as truth/reality.

    I was thinking about this all earlier....of the beliefs that people hold, some are just what they would LIKE to believe and some are borne out of direct experience.  The latter obviously holds more weight and is more worthy of respect, I feel.  In either case, some people are more sensitive than others to having their beliefs challenged so it can be difficult discussing their topic when trying to glean a more objective appraisal (if this is at all possible).

    Sometimes the opportunity to challenge is obvious as in this thread - I called it an enquiry since I could only project certain thoughts I had on the topic, i.e. having no real experience contacting spirits that had passed on.

    I welcome having my beliefs challenged anyway since I am more interested in arriving at the truth.  This matters more to me than safeguarding a belief that may well benefit from being reappraised.  I think it is healthy to not begrudge questions asked about a belief - it is a measure of their substance that they can hold up to this.  That said, often belief borne of experiences may not be understood by someone not having had the benefit of this.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:54 pm

    Bodhicitta wrote:
    Ame: My understanding is that our ego comprises of our thoughts, emotions, memories etc - in short, our worldly ID and how we interact with the world.  This is what dies and our spirit lives on/our essence.

    So I do not understand when mediums contact the dead and pass on messages as if the spirit can think and feel...since thoughts, emotions and memories spring from our ego/worldly ID and our mind surely dies once the brain does.


    Your puzzlement is well founded, your intuition is correct. After death of the flesh there is a period of time when the personal thoughts, feelings, all that is connected to our sensory life here continue to exist.  How long depends on the fondness we had for this sensory world of experiences; the stronger the longer.  

    In short what mediums or psychics see or hear or commune with are just soulless shells.  Blavatsky and other theosophists made a point of teaching just that.
    Your comment is possibly down to your own religious practice and beliefs and therefore understandable. I can accept that ghost's are soulless souls as this is due to residual energy. Energy that is imprinted into the atmosphere. The awareness of residual energy is similar to people watching a television programme, they can see the person clearly yet they get no response when they communicate too them, Obviously they actually can't respond because it is a tv show and the film is nothing more than a recording of an event that can be repeated over and over. 

    Whereas Spirit communicators do the exact opposite. They show themselves to mediums and communicate intelligently. If they were soulless souls they would not be able to communicate. Nevertheless, I can gather from the little that I have read is that some religious teachings teach people to rise above such visions and not to become distracted by them. Though I suppose followers of these religions are seeking to reach a state of enlightenment or some other state. To state Spirit communicators are soulless shells indicates you have had no personal experience and are possibly willing to accept the words of teachers such as Blavatsky and other theosophists, without question or experiencing it for yourself. If you had had the experience of being a medium, you would not make such statements for you have no need to.
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    Blavatsky's vision

    Post  Bodhicitta on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:04 pm

    This post is an addition to my response to Ame - only.

    Blavatsky was born a medium and until the age of 25 or so had no control over that psychic ability.  She attended very many seances and saw with the inner eye the horror that those who could not experience that, did not see.

    The first three pages of her early letter, (written before 1875) give her experiential view of the shells of mortals that mediums invite.

    http://www.iapsop.com/archive/materials/the_path/the_path_v9_n11_february_1895.pdf
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:16 pm

    Bodhicitta wrote:This post is an addition to my response to Ame - only.

    Blavatsky was born a medium and until the age of 25 or so had no control over that psychic ability.  She attended very many seances and saw with the inner eye the horror that those who could not experience that, did not see.

    The first three pages of her early letter, (written before 1875) give her experiential view of the shells of mortals that mediums invite.

    http://www.iapsop.com/archive/materials/the_path/the_path_v9_n11_february_1895.pdf
    I am not sure that the work mediums do has much to do with seances (where lower entitites are more likely to be contacted); although that may have been more true when Blavatsky was alive.  My understanding is that mediums mostly work in spiritualist churches where people come to have news from their loved ones who have passed on.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  mac on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:30 pm

    It's easy to selectively choose a particular snap-shot in history to support one's point but I wonder if the spirit who was once Madame Blavatsky still holds a view similar to the one held when incarnate....??  Teachers and guides offer a more uplifting account.



    Whatever the situation was then we live now in a world very different from that of Madame Blavatsky.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:14 am

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:38 am

    mac wrote:It's easy to selectively choose a particular snap-shot in history to support one's point but I wonder if the spirit who was once Madame Blavatsky still holds a view similar to the one held when incarnate....??  Teachers and guides offer a more uplifting account.



    Whatever the situation was then we live now in a world very different from that of Madame Blavatsky.
    I remember reading 'Life After Death In The Worlds Unseen' by Anthony Borgia. After his death in 1914 Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson, communicated his views through Anthony. Apparently he came to the understanding and realisation that his earthly views which he had written in a book was wrong and possibly harmful to others because of them.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:56 pm

    skye wrote:
    mac wrote:It's easy to selectively choose a particular snap-shot in history to support one's point but I wonder if the spirit who was once Madame Blavatsky still holds a view similar to the one held when incarnate....??  Teachers and guides offer a more uplifting account.



    Whatever the situation was then we live now in a world very different from that of Madame Blavatsky.
    I remember reading 'Life After Death In The Worlds Unseen' by Anthony Borgia. After his death in 1914 Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson, communicated his views through Anthony. Apparently he came to the understanding and realisation that his earthly views which he had written in a book was wrong and possibly harmful to others because of them.
    I note that Robert Benson was an anglican priest who became a catholic.  Orthodox religion has always disapproved of psychic abilities so this is no surprise.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:06 pm

    mac wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:
    mac wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Mac, I've talked to spiritualists that believe that evidential mediumship is proof and that's ok, except when it leads to the interpretation of other peoples experiences as being something less than.  

    Many people have exp.o boast about or to show off my (non-existent!) abilities to impress people. I respect your right to say as little about your 40 years as you choose and I would not expect you to tel..............
    You are confident about your approach and I'm confident about my own.  That's how it should be given we've both been 'at this stuff' for several decades each.
    There hasn't been any implication about how you should see your beliefs, if you want to believe they are true and other teachings are less reliable, than that is your choice. I stated very clearly, that I see your beliefs as being beliefs.

    But I also see the way that you respond to other peoples beliefs.
    In that last sentence I sense a note of reproval....  :SH:

    Earlier you went to pains to explain you had many years:
    ".... of a very special and meaningful relationship, of guidance, understanding and learning through spiritual communication."  and how you "... speak of my personal experiences as being beliefs and put them on an equal level as all other beliefs, because I understand people and I respect people."  All that's just fine by me but then you continued to speak at length about my beliefs when I have declared that I don't class what underpins my approach as 'my beliefs'.  Forgive me but I sense you're determined to make the point that because you class your 40 years of learning etc. as 'your beliefs' then you are going to class others' learning in the same way.  That sounds a little dismissive, even disrespectful.

    As for your years
    "...of a very special and meaningful relationship" (etc)  I suppose I should claim similar for myself (other than being able to muster only 32 years :mecry: ) but I would feel it might look like one-upmanship.

    In posting #23 you wrote:
    "But I don't believe that what you cite as being 'evidence' is really enough to prove that personalities go off and live in a spirit world. So whilst I respect your belief, I do view it as a belief, no more or less than any other."  Again you appear to seek to demote what I say to being my beliefs and that they are not.  I responded to the effect I couldn't recall having cited anything and asked if you could point out what you had seen.  You didn't respond.

    You claim that:
    "I understand people and I respect people." but from where I'm standing it feels like you haven't actually understood me and by continuing pointedly to refer to "my beliefs" you are not respecting me Perhaps I'm not people?

    But now we're massively off topic and I apologise for the disruption to ameliorate and anyone else wanting to progress the subject of this discussion thread.




    The reason I explained that after 40 years of experience, I still refer to my own understanding as 'belief', was an attempt to let you understand that calling something a belief doesn't demote or de-value our experiences at all. Instead, it opens the door to further spiritual understanding.

    If you didn't understand that, then I have explained it again here.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  ameliorate on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:22 pm

    Blueanchor wrote:The reason I explained that after 40 years of experience, I still refer to my own understanding as 'belief', was an attempt to let you understand that calling something a belief doesn't demote or de-value our experiences at all. Instead, it opens the door to further spiritual understanding.

    If you didn't understand that, then I have explained it again here.
    I know this is a debate you are having with mac but it highlights the confusion over using certain words, e.g. like belief in what we associate with it.

    A belief is said to be an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

    Hence when a belief is the outcome of direct experience (or has been confirmed by it), perhaps a different word could more beneficially be used, e.g. "it has become my understanding"  To still label an experience as a belief feels like rendering into a more hazy notion, i.e. be seen to be on a less sure footing.  It is like calling a gateau a mere sponge!

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:30 pm

    Blueanchor wrote:
    skye wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Thank you Skye for acknowledging that no frame of reference is greater or lesser than another's.

    With reference to what you say regarding spirit perhaps being unaware of the human world, the film 'The Others' portrays this idea extremely well.

    It is a possibility that some people retain their personalities and exist in a spirit/human world. However, there are quite a lot of people like myself (perhaps even millergrls too) that experience communication with spirit that isn't discarnate and doesn't show human traits. Also, the way I experience communication is through different vibrations on varying levels. This is something that I felt the medium, whose vision I spoke of in an earlier post, alluded to. So I'm interested in how you would view this or explain it.

    Could it be that not all spirit exists as dicarnate personality? Or... and this is the theory that I'm exploring, that different aspects of what we view as our self, vibrate at different frequencies, and therefore are communicated with on different vibrational planes of existence?


    I haven't seen the film, 'The Others' although I did watch a couple minutes of a trailer on IMBD earlier. It appears to be an interesting film, however I wouldn't want to compare it to what happens to discarnate beings in the after life. I know there are mischievous spirits who can influence our mind should we resonate on their level. Also residual energy can provide information as if acting as a memory of a person etc. Nonetheless this form of energy will not be able to communicate to a sitter of future events which can give hope to someone. I must add mediumship is not to to be used for predictive purposes, however, some spirit communicators know exactly what their loved ones here need to hear and will express through a medium.
       
    As with any event in life it's down to personal experience that determines ones outlook. My experience is such that I have come to accept people do continue to exist and retain their human characteristics and personalities which are revealed to people in this dimension. I believe also that it is possible for people to communicate with any and all life forms whom may happen to exist in the as yet unknown, but various dimensions throughout the universe. And, providing conditions are harmonious with each other it is probable for communication to take place. I can relate to the different vibrations you experience when attuned to the vibration of beings from these other realms.

    In regard to the medium who spoke of going through a patch of not being able to contact those people living (there is no death - imo) in the world of spirit. All mediums whether they be a Spiritualist medium or not, they will at various stages reach a plateau where spiritual progress seems to stop. Unfortunately there is not much one can do about it, other than accept it as we can not force spirit to communicate. If we do it's likely frustration and  negativity may be experienced and could result in feelings of depression. Some people suggest plateaus provide the opportunity for learning what has been achieved up to date.


    The vision of her going up in an elevator and whooshing past spirit could be her own interpretation of how she is feeling about the situation. Perhaps she was aware her purpose is to function as a medium and be of service whereby this became the motivation to refocus her attention. I've noticed it's a misconception often made by some that spirit are perceived as being in some high up place above. I believe this could be due to orthodox religions who believe in there being a heaven above and a hell below. It is difficult to interpret other people's experiences as nobody knows them as much as they do. I suggest listening to her intuition this will reveal what she may need to hear.  


    I'm of the mindset that spirit is purely the life force energy that exists in all living entities, irrespective of whatever life form is created. We are spirit in the here and now each experiencing life in human form, although our ego's may want us to deny this information. I believe we have within us the potential to attain varying levels of vibration which could result in our communicating and interacting with other species throughout the universe. That being said, I imagine connecting and communicating with other spiritual beings of an unknown source may have a purpose, unfortunately it doesn't offer the comfort that mediumship can to a grieving person, after all it is via a demonstration of evidential mediumship where life after physical death can validate the continuous existence of the human soul. 
    Thank you for your thoughtful response.
    Yes, the film is perhaps unlikely to depict the spirit world, but it is interesting in that it is from the spirits perspective of hearing the living (I don't want to give too many spoilers).

    If residual memories and thoughts that occurred upon death stay around, how does a medium know that they are not picking up on that?
    In my view, there's no reason that they need to distinguish between it being spirit and other sources of energy as it still has the potential to offer comfort to those that are grieving.

    The medium who told the story about the elevator was speaking about her own development and she has gone on to become a successful medium in the spiritualist church.

    However, in regard to the idea of attaining vibrational levels, I first told her story to make a point with regards to those levels being hierarchical (ie higher being a higher attainment). In this regard I felt that her story demonstrates how she could have communicated with spirits of a higher vibration, but she recognised that her vision was showing her that her purpose was to communicate with discarnates and to offer comfort to the relatives and friends. My point was that we each have our own purpose, and this woman's work has as much worth as the monk that sits on the mountain in a higher vibrational state. Likewise, those higher vibrational communications have as much worth as the communication with discarnates. If we are achieving our purpose, then we are attaining highly.
    Yes I imagine the film to be interesting, although I'm not fan of horror films so I can't see me watching it which is a shame as it looks like it would be good.

    It's possible during the initial stages of development some mediums don't know whether they are tuning into residual energy or not, Thoughts and impressions enter their mind and they believe that because the thoughts aren't theirs, then it must be coming from spirit.I know I used to be the same. It soon dawned on me that the insight I gained was coming from nobody else but me, my own intuition. Over time and with continued practice I progressed and learnt to distinguish my thoughts to those of spirit and eventually became aware of the subtle change of energies when I linked in. In addition to this, the words from spirit had a noticeable accent and.or dialect when conditions were compatible and harmonious.

    I doubt residual energy has the potential to comfort the grieving, because the energy would be flat or dead in comparison to an actual face to face sitting I believe it would lack the warmth and emotional content that helps paint a spirit back to life.There could also be instances where some mediums say, they aren't getting anything else or, the spirit is standing back, to account for an absence of validating information should they be reading residual energy. This is understandable should they not be fully aware of how they and spirit work. Yet I'm know this is my perception and will not fit with other people's experiences.

    Nevertheless, I still maintain residual energy fails to produce an intelligent 2 way mind to mind communication that enables a recipient to feel as if their departed loved ones are sitting close beside them, having a normal conversation, and to learn they're aware of what is going on in their lives is what mediumship is all about. In my view reading residual energy it is liken to being a one sided conversation with us being the observers. 

    I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments above. I'm a firm believer that each person has the right to be themselves, and that each person has qualities that has value and worth. Too assume anything different is in my view down to egotistical thinking.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  skye on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:44 pm

    ameliorate wrote:
    skye wrote:
    mac wrote:It's easy to selectively choose a particular snap-shot in history to support one's point but I wonder if the spirit who was once Madame Blavatsky still holds a view similar to the one held when incarnate....??  Teachers and guides offer a more uplifting account.



    Whatever the situation was then we live now in a world very different from that of Madame Blavatsky.
    I remember reading 'Life After Death In The Worlds Unseen' by Anthony Borgia. After his death in 1914 Monsignor Robert Hugh Benson, communicated his views through Anthony. Apparently he came to the understanding and realisation that his earthly views which he had written in a book was wrong and possibly harmful to others because of them.
    I note that Robert Benson was an anglican priest who became a catholic.  Orthodox religion has always disapproved of psychic abilities so this is no surprise. 
    Indeed he was. He was also the son of a former Archbishop of Canterbury, therefore his background must have had a huge impact to his outlook on life. No doubt after he passed he realised the attitude of the church was not only wrong but ignorant. He possible wanted to amend his actions and right a wrong. Although like you say those who practice orthodox religions wouldn't listen anyway.
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:31 pm

    ameliorate wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:The reason I explained that after 40 years of experience, I still refer to my own understanding as 'belief', was an attempt to let you understand that calling something a belief doesn't demote or de-value our experiences at all. Instead, it opens the door to further spiritual understanding.

    If you didn't understand that, then I have explained it again here.
    I know this is a debate you are having with mac but it highlights the confusion over using certain words, e.g. like belief in what we associate with it.

    A belief is said to be an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

    Hence when a belief is the outcome of direct experience (or has been confirmed by it), perhaps a different word could more beneficially be used, e.g. "it has become my understanding"  To still label an experience as a belief feels like rendering into a more hazy notion, i.e. be seen to be on a less sure footing.  It is like calling a gateau a mere sponge!
    An experience is experienced and I wouldn't call the experience itself a belief. It is how we explain the experience that I call a belief.



    I have felt something touch my arms and felt the pressure of that touch as it lifted me. It was a very real and wonderful experience. But when I say that an angel put it's wings beneath my arms and lifted me, I am telling you what I believe the experience was.  

    The experience =  I have felt something touch my arms and felt the pressure of that touch as it lifted me - that is 100% known.

    The belief = an angel put it's wings beneath my arms and lifted me - how do I know it was an angel? that's a valid question because I don't know that for sure, it's just the way it felt at the time and I associate what I was feeling with angelic energies, so I say it was an angel.

    But I'm aware that there are other explanations and that another with the very same experience might interpret it differently and I respect other peoples views as equally valid to my own.


    Last edited by Blueanchor on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

    Post  Blueanchor on Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:39 pm

    skye wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:
    skye wrote:
    Blueanchor wrote:Thank you Skye for acknowledging that no frame of reference is greater or lesser than another's.

    With reference to what you say regarding spirit perhaps being unaware of the human world, the film 'The Others' portrays this idea extremely well.

    It is a possibility that some people retain their personalities and exist in a spirit/human world. However, there are quite a lot of people like myself (perhaps even millergrls too) that experience communication with spirit that isn't discarnate and doesn't show human traits. Also, the way I experience communication is through different vibrations on varying levels. This is something that I felt the medium, whose vision I spoke of in an earlier post, alluded to. So I'm interested in how you would view this or explain it.

    Could it be that not all spirit exists as dicarnate personality? Or... and this is the theory that I'm exploring, that different aspects of what we view as our self, vibrate at different frequencies, and therefore are communicated with on different vibrational planes of existence?


    I haven't seen the film, 'The Others' although I did watch a couple minutes of a trailer on IMBD earlier. It appears to be an interesting film, however I wouldn't want to compare it to what happens to discarnate beings in the after life. I know there are mischievous spirits who can influence our mind should we resonate on their level. Also residual energy can provide information as if acting as a memory of a person etc. Nonetheless this form of energy will not be able to communicate to a sitter of future events which can give hope to someone. I must add mediumship is not to to be used for predictive purposes, however, some spirit communicators know exactly what their loved ones here need to hear and will express through a medium.
       
    As with any event in life it's down to personal experience that determines ones outlook. My experience is such that I have come to accept people do continue to exist and retain their human characteristics and personalities which are revealed to people in this dimension. I believe also that it is possible for people to communicate with any and all life forms whom may happen to exist in the as yet unknown, but various dimensions throughout the universe. And, providing conditions are harmonious with each other it is probable for communication to take place. I can relate to the different vibrations you experience when attuned to the vibration of beings from these other realms.

    In regard to the medium who spoke of going through a patch of not being able to contact those people living (there is no death - imo) in the world of spirit. All mediums whether they be a Spiritualist medium or not, they will at various stages reach a plateau where spiritual progress seems to stop. Unfortunately there is not much one can do about it, other than accept it as we can not force spirit to communicate. If we do it's likely frustration and  negativity may be experienced and could result in feelings of depression. Some people suggest plateaus provide the opportunity for learning what has been achieved up to date.


    The vision of her going up in an elevator and whooshing past spirit could be her own interpretation of how she is feeling about the situation. Perhaps she was aware her purpose is to function as a medium and be of service whereby this became the motivation to refocus her attention. I've noticed it's a misconception often made by some that spirit are perceived as being in some high up place above. I believe this could be due to orthodox religions who believe in there being a heaven above and a hell below. It is difficult to interpret other people's experiences as nobody knows them as much as they do. I suggest listening to her intuition this will reveal what she may need to hear.  


    I'm of the mindset that spirit is purely the life force energy that exists in all living entities, irrespective of whatever life form is created. We are spirit in the here and now each experiencing life in human form, although our ego's may want us to deny this information. I believe we have within us the potential to attain varying levels of vibration which could result in our communicating and interacting with other species throughout the universe. That being said, I imagine connecting and communicating with other spiritual beings of an unknown source may have a purpose, unfortunately it doesn't offer the comfort that mediumship can to a grieving person, after all it is via a demonstration of evidential mediumship where life after physical death can validate the continuous existence of the human soul. 
    Thank you for your thoughtful response.
    Yes, the film is perhaps unlikely to depict the spirit world, but it is interesting in that it is from the spirits perspective of hearing the living (I don't want to give too many spoilers).

    If residual memories and thoughts that occurred upon death stay around, how does a medium know that they are not picking up on that?
    In my view, there's no reason that they need to distinguish between it being spirit and other sources of energy as it still has the potential to offer comfort to those that are grieving.

    The medium who told the story about the elevator was speaking about her own development and she has gone on to become a successful medium in the spiritualist church.

    However, in regard to the idea of attaining vibrational levels, I first told her story to make a point with regards to those levels being hierarchical (ie higher being a higher attainment). In this regard I felt that her story demonstrates how she could have communicated with spirits of a higher vibration, but she recognised that her vision was showing her that her purpose was to communicate with discarnates and to offer comfort to the relatives and friends. My point was that we each have our own purpose, and this woman's work has as much worth as the monk that sits on the mountain in a higher vibrational state. Likewise, those higher vibrational communications have as much worth as the communication with discarnates. If we are achieving our purpose, then we are attaining highly.
    Yes I imagine the film to be interesting, although I'm not fan of horror films so I can't see me watching it which is a shame as it looks like it would be good.

    It's possible during the initial stages of development some mediums don't know whether they are tuning into residual energy or not, Thoughts and impressions enter their mind and they believe that because the thoughts aren't theirs, then it must be coming from spirit.I know I used to be the same. It soon dawned on me that the insight I gained was coming from nobody else but me, my own intuition. Over time and with continued practice I progressed and learnt to distinguish my thoughts to those of spirit and eventually became aware of the subtle change of energies when I linked in. In addition to this, the words from spirit had a noticeable accent and.or dialect when conditions were compatible and harmonious.

    I doubt residual energy has the potential to comfort the grieving, because the energy would be flat or dead in comparison to an actual face to face sitting I believe it would lack the warmth and emotional content that helps paint a spirit back to life.There could also be instances where some mediums say, they aren't getting anything else or, the spirit is standing back, to account for an absence of validating information should they be reading residual energy. This is understandable should they not be fully aware of how they and spirit work. Yet I'm know this is my perception and will not fit with other people's experiences.

    Nevertheless, I still maintain residual energy fails to produce an intelligent 2 way mind to mind communication that enables a recipient to feel as if their departed loved ones are sitting close beside them, having a normal conversation, and to learn they're aware of what is going on in their lives is what mediumship is all about. In my view reading residual energy it is liken to being a one sided conversation with us being the observers. 

    I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments above. I'm a firm believer that each person has the right to be themselves, and that each person has qualities that has value and worth. Too assume anything different is in my view down to egotistical thinking.
    When you say that residual energy wouldn't comfort the living, if the sitter doesn't feel the energy for themselves, but listens to the medium and hears the comfort that the mediums tone and words give them, that could surely offer comfort?

    From communicating with other spirit, I can relate to it feeling different than our own voices and intuition. So that makes sense to me. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

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    Re: Mediums, telepathy and what is being contacted....an enquiry

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